The truth and lies of Ukraine Politics and governments

Well you officially keep using their flags during 9th May everywhere for example, plus i assumed that it was your birth country. But i am happy to hear that you don’t approve that era. Yet, you are unable to see the correlation between actions of Stalin and Putin in terms of expansionism. I quite follow lots of media, but suppression and subsidisation of media in countries lacking press freedom? Nah.

You see, sixthelement, I am not sure what you are talking about. What do you mean when you saying that we are using their flag on 9th of May? It's a flag of the USSR! So, it's not their flag. More than that this flag is banned in Ukraine. All soviet statures, flags and symbolism is banned in Ukraine. They call it desovietification? I guess? They like to create the new symbolisms. By the way, some of their scientist are saying that it's their ansesters diged out the Black See! It's a partial jock, partly not. There are some scientists in Ukraine that claim it! Another thing you are saying that Ukraine was a motherland of Russia? Yes and no. Again, it's a partial truth. There was Kiev and Novgorod. Two origins where Russian state took place. As much as I know. By the way, western theory is that vikings were the founders of Russian state. What about Turkey? Where is the origin of your state? Why we began to talk about origins of our states? Stalin and Putin? What is correlation here? Stalin and Eltsin? Stalin and Biden, Erdogan? Don't you see any correlation? I don't see either. What I can say, try to use other sources of information. Do you think that there is democracy in the West? I am not so sure anymore. Try to read Goebbels, German minister of propaganda. He said everything long time ago. It's so true today. The more we lie, the more it is resembles the truth..

1) Yes i speak about USSR. The state that was a dictatorship by its definition, which cooperated with Nazis for Polish lands.
2) Ukraine is a sovereign state after dismantling of USSR and they can do anything they want as long as it is aligned with international laws. I am against those kind of bans personally but that's none of my and your business. You have the right to condemn it, not bomb their homes.
3) I have an enthusiasm about history, antropology and ethnical studies but in this matter I don't care about origins of Rus. Novogorod, Kiev, Muscovy and all others are in history. Ukraine is a sovereign state, who always kept the right of independence, yet stayed in USSR, and then has been granted independence just like Russia and other states.
4) It is hard to understand your arguements. I never recommended to discuss origins or political leaders. I don't even understand how it came here but it's normal because you speak with numerous fallacy methods. I am not intimidated by your ad hominem, and i find talking about Turkey irrevelant, since it is not a co-belligerent. Even if you criticize Turkey and my alleged ancestors, i will be happy to hear it and learn. But for this topic please keep on track: we are talking about an aggressor, expansionist, autocrat state sneak attacking on a sovereign state.
5) It is so sad that russian people haven't seen a tiny period of democracy in entire history. This must have contributed that there are lots of grumpy angry men defending expansionism and autocracy while having limited access to modern world.
6) Apart from everything, i'll let you know that if someone, anyone, tries to invade my homeland, i'll try my best to rip their heads off, rightfully.

Excellent, sixthelement, but then again, you throwing the slogans which are not the facts! First of all, exactly, I didn't want to discuss Turkeysh history with you. Why? Where it would lead us? Let's leave the ancient history alone. But, the NAZI cooperation with Stalin? But what about NAZI cooperation with Polish government, British government with NAZI? It's not so interesting? Did Stalin start the WWII? Ukraine is an sovereign state! So what? Iraq, Livia, Syria, Yugoslavia they all sovereign states. Did it help them in any way? By the way, following your logic, has Poland give back German's their lands? Just curious. About the wish to do what you want. If you want to kill me and saying it openly. What shall I do? If you have a gun and going around me? Do I have the right to hit you in the head or to the other parts of your body? Fair or unfair? Why did you do it? What was the reason to threaten me? You know, we all have to think what we are doing. Democracy? Everybody have the right to be crazy? Why you denying my rights to be crazy? And again, it's very strange arguments! You never had democracy in your country! Grate! Do you have democracy in Turkey? Are you pulling my leg? Is your country democracy?

what about NAZI cooperation with Polish government

Cooperation about being invaded by both soviets and Germans? 😂

Did Stalin start the WWII?

Yes, and he ironically ended it as well.

has Poland give back German's their lands?

USSR paid compensatiosn to Poland using German lands... and Germany also had to pay compensations to Poland for the damages.

Your deny is unbelievable... Just like

Do you have democracy in Turkey?

They have a collapsing sultanate wannabe with a pinch of neo-ottomanism rhetoric. So, yes, a Turkish trying to lecture a Russian is quite funny, but eh has a point; Turkey is not the topic here, not a direct one (it surely is indirectly related by, for instance, doing crap to Russia; yet buying/selling shit to the country) whereas Russia is the main antagonist of the Ukraine war. Once again, you try to distract people from that because you can't face that Russia is far from being perfect and refuse to acknowledge its flaws, even though Russia is far from being the antechrist described by many people here, and that Russians people should certainly not pay for what a government does, especially if it's a dictatorship led by an insane dude who does everything alone like people claim here; unless logic and coherence aren't welcomed and switched for a double standard.

Lianshen, again, Polish government was trying to make a deal with Germany. British government tried to make a deal with Germany. Stalin made deal with Germany when he knew, it was his last chance. He didn't want to fight alone with this devil, Adolf Hitler. I don't blame Poland, Britain or somebody else, they tried to make own deals. Politics, interests, it's so understood. Why everybody is trying make villain of Stalin? Why everybody is trying to make devil of Putin? Is it convenient? Interests? What's going on? I don't like it. And you know why? It's a bullshit. About compensation to whom? To Ukraine? to Poland? The borders have been moved! Who is going to compensate who? Are we ready to open this Pandora box? I would say yes, Russia is ready for that. Know why? There is no international law. Thous win, who have the power. Why not try? Again, are we trying to start another war? Talking about Turkey, why? It's not the topic now. It's an interesting country, but European union doesn't want to have it as a part of Europe. Does it tell us something?

And again, Lianshen, antichrist? It's a subject that West is afraid to raise. And it's so right. Who is a Christ and who is antichrist? It's a big question?

And I have some facts to prove it. In Orthodox church gay relationship is a sin. Sodom and Gomorrah, like in Bible. Catholics think differently? Why? Do they have another Bible? Let them show to me where sexual relationship between men and men is alright? Do they have their own Bible that can prove it? Everything is nowadays is under attack. To kill is a sin? Why do we killing each other? Who we are? Why we don't talk? What is our excuse? We something don't know? We are dumb? What's wrong with us?

"Grumpy, Angry Men of Russia!"

Sergey always opens his mouth wide and gets it snapped by Lianshen!

I object to Lianshen’s statement about me being funny criticising Russian government. Everybody is responsible for their individual actions and statements. There are also russian people seeing the truth. Defending democracy is not in monopoly of west. And it shouldn’t be. As much as I can’t accuse you about arguable french politics that you don’t approve, you also can’t accuse me. So if you think that an individual criticising a government is funny this would be against western values. I don’t think you really mean it though.

sixthelement, you are using a western blocks of logic - western values. What is it? Did Napoleon, Hitler knew anything about western values? Even if it so, what does it mean? How about German values? How about Russian, Chinese values etc. If we start to think it does not make much sense. Another thing, the western media presents it like Putin suddenly without any provocation started this operation. And again, you see, it's not war! Why? Ukraine did not declare war to Russia! Russia did not declare war to Ukraine! So, what is it? Why? When you start to think, it's about money! You can kill people, but you can't endanger the welfare of rich people! West needs Russian oil, gas, but the pipelines are going thru Ukraine. But Ukraine was pushed into this war by the West. Ukraine is a victim here. Everybody is using it in own interests. Even Ukrainian government is using own country to the interests of the corrupted bastards.

I object to Lianshen’s statement about me being funny criticising Russian government. Everybody is responsible for their individual actions and statements. There are also russian people seeing the truth. Defending democracy is not in monopoly of west. And it shouldn’t be. As much as I can’t accuse you about arguable french politics that you don’t approve, you also can’t accuse me. So if you think that an individual criticising a government is funny this would be against western values. I don’t think you really mean it though.

I criticize the "West" as much and find it as funny if not funnier than that for they don't see the problem in our own countries and play the paragon of virtue.
I admit that I jumped to conclusions and went too fast on assuming that you were a proud supporter of your government though.

Lianshen, again, Polish government was trying to make a deal with Germany. British government tried to make a deal with Germany. Stalin made deal with Germany when he knew, it was his last chance. He didn't want to fight alone with this devil, Adolf Hitler. I don't blame Poland, Britain or somebody else, they tried to make own deals. Politics, interests, it's so understood. Why everybody is trying make villain of Stalin? Why everybody is trying to make devil of Putin? Is it convenient? Interests? What's going on? I don't like it. And you know why? It's a bullshit. About compensation to whom? To Ukraine? to Poland? The borders have been moved! Who is going to compensate who? Are we ready to open this Pandora box? I would say yes, Russia is ready for that. Know why? There is no international law. Thous win, who have the power. Why not try? Again, are we trying to start another war? Talking about Turkey, why? It's not the topic now. It's an interesting country, but European union doesn't want to have it as a part of Europe. Does it tell us something?

I'm a bit annoyed to have to rewrite a whole post so I'll summarize:

The so called deal between Poland and Germany went well apparently, and Staline surely seize his last chance.. to gobble half of Poland.

Staline sure should be described as the hero he is, sending only meany people to gulags to exterminate all the nazis of this land by making a pact with uncle Adolf to invade Poland, ayaaaa. Coming to Putin, maybe he is described as an evil man because it's partly the case cosnidering the state of Russia, but also because it's indeed very convenient? Where you are right though is that he surely isn't much worse than many political leaders.

About compensation, it seems that you refuse to read. What I said is that USSR gave German lands to Poland as compensation for soviet damages caused to Poland, which makes your statement at best very funny, most likely ridicule. Now, you talk about opening the Pandora box, but remember that it's you who do so... and I'm not so convinced that you are ready for that because, inthis world, and considering hwo rotten Russia is, your country would at ebst eb the vassal of China like it is already becoming the case.

Concerning Turkey not being the topic, that's really the pot calling the kettle black...

And I have some facts to prove it. In Orthodox church gay relationship is a sin. Sodom and Gomorrah, like in Bible. Catholics think differently? Why? Do they have another Bible? Let them show to me where sexual relationship between men and men is alright? Do they have their own Bible that can prove it? Everything is nowadays is under attack. To kill is a sin? Why do we killing each other? Who we are? Why we don't talk? What is our excuse? We something don't know? We are dumb? What's wrong with us?

What is that supposed to prove except your homophobia exactly? For sure the West is filled with degenerates -which homosexuality isn't, but looking at how Russia is, I wouldn't fix my opinion too quickly if I were you... Plus simple reminder that religion wasn't so much appreciated under communism, kek.

Did Napoleon, Hitler knew anything about western values?

Oh God, now Napoléon is in t he same bag as Hitler, but Staline is not a villain... Seems like some people still are butthurt about a Corsican who shaped modern Europe.

Napoleon? 🙂 That's another ad hominem. Now if somebody from Greece responds, it will even go to Alexander. That's an indicator of poor debate skill, which is normal for a culture experienced 3 eras of continuous oppression. Even Turkey had its own windows of democracy attempts, if i wouldn't believe in individuals, i'd say i'd be the same.
Western values? Yes i am pro western values even if i live in the Middle East. With all colonialism, all fight, all struggles during wars, conflicts... The triumphs, the tears and blood that had been shed, these values developed and came at a point. Leading to creation of everything we enjoy today in all fields. Even Russia had its great eras when westernized during Tsardom, then again Bolsheviks and their ideas coming from west. When i say western values, i am not meaning unconditional approval of everything western world does, but sticking to its fundemental values which have proved their worth.

OK guys, what was the topic? The truth and lies of Ukraine. How came we to Napoleon, western values etc? And suddenly Lianshen is asking me to say something bad about Russia!? What it has to do with the topic we are discussing? So, you like the western values. OK. Gay, lesbians, transgenders, the right of children to change sex, to do the things whichever you like to do. Is it the western values? Like Lianshen writes - it proves my homophobia. I just called the things their names. It's in the Bible. We don't have Bible for transgenders written. If you know such Bible, please, tell me where I can find it. Did Stalin make any crime? He probably did, but we are not here discussing Stalin! Another thing, Lianshen, you just don't want to hear the reason. I told it thousand times - politicians have to talk! It's their job! If they don't talk, they don't do their job! Why do we need them then? All the rest is just bla-bla-bla! We can go like that forever.

Yes how did we come to changing sex, homosexuality and Bible? If you stop framing people into stereotypes and ask me in other discussion i will happily tell my opinions about each of these, Ignorantly relating western values with woke culture shows that you don't know a single thing. Stalin and USSR was on the table because both were same expansionists as today's RF and Putin.

Let's forget all, as you suggested and state this: Sneak attacking (thinking you can invade all of it in several days) and bombing a sovereign state's capital, occupying its provinces is agression and is punishable by compensation. Unfortunately rulers and oligarkhs will not pay this compensation from their wealth if they get away with it, but Russian people will.

Truths and lies are job of people such as journalists, international inspectors, civil organissations. But ridiculous claims about Ukraine such as Nazis are ruling (with a Jewish president?), or just because they change Lenin Prospect to some Hetman's name, are not valid and legitimate casus belli.

OK guys, what was the topic? The truth and lies of Ukraine. How came we to Napoleon, western values etc?

Because you brought them..? Like you brought Bible and homosexuality, degeneracy and many other things as "western values"?

And suddenly Lianshen is asking me to say something bad about Russia!?

No, I ask you to be as critical toward Russia as you are toward "western" countries. That's include, unfortunately, the fact that Russia isn't a country that only want to save the world from evil nazis; but that, on the opposite, that Russia also has interests, is also corrupted and evenif it's not really the reason for this war, is imperalist.
Thaht has everything to do with the current events in Ukraine as far as I know, since Russia is the country that initiated the armed conflict.

it proves my homophobia.

Yes it does. You mix up homosexuality, which is quite stable in human population, with gender dysphoria and societal propaganda.

We don't have Bible for transgenders written. If you know such Bible, please, tell me where I can find it.

We don't have a Bible for Evolution by means of natural selection, for Big Bang, for axolotl and platypus or for Russians either. Your comment makes no sense even religiously speaking...

I told it thousand times - politicians have to talk! It's their job! If they don't talk, they don't do their job! Why do we need them then? All the rest is just bla-bla-bla! We can go like that forever.

They spend more time talking than doing their job, actually...
We need them to do actual work like having proper suggestion, not the ones from lobbies and not being corrupted then blabling to excuse the shit they do all the time. That they take real measure to work and stop, in Russia like in EU, feeding thieves at the expense of people. That might have helped to avoid the war more than talking non sense to cover pedobiden & son, for instance.

Yes how did we come to changing sex, homosexuality and Bible? If you stop framing people into stereotypes and ask me in other discussion i will happily tell my opinions about each of these, Ignorantly relating western values with woke culture shows that you don't know a single thing. Stalin and USSR was on the table because both were same expansionists as today's RF and Putin.

Let's forget all, as you suggested and state this: Sneak attacking (thinking you can invade all of it in several days) and bombing a sovereign state's capital, occupying its provinces is agression and is punishable by compensation. Unfortunately rulers and oligarkhs will not pay this compensation from their wealth if they get away with it, but Russian people will.

Truths and lies are job of people such as journalists, international inspectors, civil organissations. But ridiculous claims about Ukraine such as Nazis are ruling (with a Jewish president?), or just because they change Lenin Prospect to some Hetman's name, are not valid and legitimate casus belli.

Neonazis party was taking a good part of the government of Ukraine in 2014, and probably are still around but with less power since then. Also, Russia didn't really sneak attacked Ukraine for multiple attempts have been made to discuss and prevent the war on the Russian side. For sure Russia is imperialist and wanted the discussion to be at its benefits mostly, but EU and NATO have been largely irresponsible and unreasonable in this story considering how Ukraine is important for russian sovereignty.

In my opinion and from what I see, Russia just took a broken casus belli to secure its sovereignity and shwo to the US and its vassals that it can't be bullied so much. It also shows that the world is, ,again, broken in 3 with China's bloc, US block and neutral/vultures states.

The topipc was initially interesting, and there are many lies that have been propagated about both Russia and Ukraine. It's a shame that Ukraine isn't described as the corrupted shithole it is and thhat the propaganda in the West is so strong that no communication is possible; but apparently, the same goes in Russia.