Abortion

idk guys war kills people too

Yes, I will say it again: blaming someone of murder, in situation You have no idea about, is unright.

You call this a murder - do You even know how many people don't consider it this way? Without judging if it is or not - use the strongest words You want, it's your perception. I agree, generally, but it doesn't matter.

You are no less emotional here, than another person, earlier in this topic, who was pro-choice.

Also, from what I know, there is no data showing that abortion is predictor of traumas or that after this proceder mental health is going down. Give me data if You have, (you of course will find something for pro life - and for pro choice side, because there are studies made for each worldview and thesis. But It's methodologically problematic) but Im still saying: people deciding for abortion, usually presents different perspective of when the life of human starts and don't consider it as "murder".

And don't talk about abortion industry, how evil it is, etc, because I know all of that, Ive heard that, don't make this discussion drifting away.

There is difference between abortion on demand as solution to birth - and - rare, but real and still happening situations when it's related to health problems, condition of potential mother or child and just... Circumstances. And You are not in position to blame young women who makes such decision, because you don't know her and don't know the case.

Blame the groups that propagate such proceder as something normal and good and as human right, but don't feel qualified to make judgments about little percent of specifical and fragile cases where it's not so simple.

Life begins at the moment of conception not because I said so, but because it's a biological fact (new and unique DNA). That means that abortion is always murder and murder is always an unacceptable act.

Genuinely surprised this isn't locked yet but the [bundle of sticks] thread is.

There's a very old joke that can aptly summarise this entire argument:

1.Pro life

2.Pro murder

3.What race is it

I tend to sit on a fence in most political arguments between the right and left and religion and science.

Although on this topic I feel like religion and science align and agree that life begins at conception. That would mean abortion is a no no.

Personally I think rare circumstances should be exempt like rape or harm to the mother etc.

However, as a person who was given up by biological parents as a baby and spent their life in the foster care system, I wouldn't wish that life on anyone. And although I survived and made a life for myself and have my own child, there were plenty of times I went dark and wished for death and wished that I myself would have been aborted.

If you don't want your child, whether you abort or not I think the odds are against that child in some way.

I think we just need more love in this world

I tend to sit on a fence in most political arguments between the right and left and religion and science.

Although on this topic I feel like religion and science align and agree that life begins at conception. That would mean abortion is a no no.

Personally I think rare circumstances should be exempt like rape or harm to the mother etc.

However, as a person who was given up by biological parents as a baby and spent their life in the foster care system, I wouldn't wish that life on anyone. And although I survived and made a life for myself and have my own child, there were plenty of times I went dark and wished for death and wished that I myself would have been aborted.

If you don't want your child, whether you abort or not I think the odds are against that child in some way.

I think we just need more love in this world

So you say that murder is sometimes acceptable? I don't think so. Murder can't cancel the rape. If mother's life is endangered, she MAY die or survive but in case of abortion/murder one person SURELY dies and maybe even mother die as well. I'm sorry that you had traumatic childhood but you are a real example of strong character who won unfavourable circumstances and I congratulate you for that. Shouldn't all people get that chance? If you were murdered, you won't be able to get that chance. Also you've mentioned that you wished to be aborted/murdered when you felt depression (you couldn't think rationally back then because of youe depression). Now when you are safe and sound, I am sure you've changed your mind.

Religion and science aren't in contrast, they are perfectly compatible. But murder/abortion isn't only political or religious question, all civilized and rational people should be against murder regardless of their political preferences or their religion

So you say that murder is sometimes acceptable? I don't think so. Murder can't cancel the rape. If mother's life is endangered, she MAY die or survive but in case of abortion/murder one person SURELY dies and maybe even mother die as well. I'm sorry that you had traumatic childhood but you are a real example of strong character who won unfavourable circumstances and I congratulate you for that. Shouldn't all people get that chance? If you were murdered, you won't be able to get that chance. Also you've mentioned that you wished to be aborted/murdered when you felt depression (you couldn't think rationally back then because of youe depression). Now when you are safe and sound, I am sure you've changed your mind.

Religion and science aren't in contrast, they are perfectly compatible. But murder/abortion isn't only political or religious question, all civilized and rational people should be against murder regardless of their political preferences or their religion

The key word in everything you say is "Murder". That sounds like a legal term and legally at least in my country abortion isn't considered as such even if that's your moral opinion.

I think we largely agree against abortion, but as someone who actually lived the life of a person who suffered systemic abuse both physical and sexual and has a number of mental health conditions as a result of parents who didn't want them, yes I would say in extreme circumstances where the mother is in harms way we should think of the person who is right in front of us over the person who is yet to be.

It's a difficult choice, and one I'd probably choose my own baby over myself, but I feel like people should at least have the choice in those extreme circumstances that are rare.

We should focus on our similarities rather than our differences ❤️

Both of you mentioned word "choice". If you commit murder/abortion, you leave no choice to unborn person, you leave him/her only death. I agree that we should offer any type of help to pregnant women both during the pregnancy and after birth, but murder/abortion isn't help. Yes I call it murder because I prefer to use right terms. The fact that it isn't considered murder in your country is irrelevant, it's still a murder because you are killing person (unborn is not "yet to be person", it's an unique person with his/her own unique DNA). Speaking about rape, health ussues and other similar things, I think I have explained everything in my previous posts - it's still a murder and it is never acceptable. I am glad that both of you claim you will probably choose life which I appreciate very and I hope you will start to protect all lives. We are all equal and all of us should have human rights and right to live and be born is the fundamental right and precondition to all other rights

"unborn is not "yet to be person", it's an unique person with his/her own unique DNA"................isn't that all people though? unborn or not. isn't that the already living children that people don't seem to be doing anything to protect in the US? In the end the woman who is pregnant is the ONLY person who gets to choose weather she wants to keep the LITERAL clump of cells or not. it is the ALREADY LIVING persons choice on what to do with THEIR body (and that goes for a lot of other things too) at the end of the day I bet the person getting the abortion isn't thinking and or caring if you think its murder, because who knows what's that woman/person went threw before they made that choice, who knows what that woman/person is presently going threw. at the end of the day it is NOT your choice and it is NOT your body. and if you are actually "pro life" (if you live in America that is) you would be doing everything to make sure the ALREADY LIVING children are safe and protected making sure they stay alive instead of getting shot at a place where they are supposed to feel safe or are told is safe. and what happens when the adults who didn't want kids have no other choice but to have the kid. abuse and neglect that is what. as someone who went threw a similar minor issue being divorce, I cant sum up what a kid in a worse situation like where their parents don't even want them would go threw because it has been a year since I tried to km$ because of how heavy a simple divorce was waying on my shoulders and still is, I am only a few months clean from $h that's how hard it is. so before you whine about women "murdering" a clump of cells with a unique set of DNA think about what the child would go threw if the parents didn't even want them born

thank you for your time

The problem that I have with most "pro-life" people is that they are always talking about the unborn child but barely anyone is talking about the becoming mother. A pregnancy means 9 months of physical and emotional changes, potential health complications, giving birth, and everything that comes afterwards. It can affect a woman's education, career, finances, relationships and mental health TREMENDOUSLY. And in the end, she is the one who has to carry the pregnancy and give birth and it is HER life that is being turned upside down.

And when people talk about the fetus, I think we also need to consider its actual stage of development. For example, the neurological structures necessary for conscious pain perception are not considered sufficiently developed until around the third trimester, with the ability to consciously experience pain generally discussed as emerging around 24–26 weeks. Before that, a fetus can respond to stimuli, but that is not necessarily the same as consciously experiencing pain.

If we genuinely care about protecting life, shouldn't we also care about the life of the woman who is already here? Being "pro-life" should mean more than just making sure a baby is born. It should also mean supporting mothers, providing affordable healthcare and childcare, protecting them from poverty and domestic violence, and making sure they have real support if they choose to have a child.

Because forcing someone to continue a pregnancy is not the same thing as supporting them through it.

The problem that I have with most "pro-life" people is that they are always talking about the unborn child but barely anyone is talking about the becoming mother. A pregnancy means 9 months of physical and emotional changes, potential health complications, giving birth, and everything that comes afterwards. It can affect a woman's education, career, finances, relationships and mental health TREMENDOUSLY. And in the end, she is the one who has to carry the pregnancy and give birth and it is HER life that is being turned upside down.

And when people talk about the fetus, I think we also need to consider its actual stage of development. For example, the neurological structures necessary for conscious pain perception are not considered sufficiently developed until around the third trimester, with the ability to consciously experience pain generally discussed as emerging around 24–26 weeks. Before that, a fetus can respond to stimuli, but that is not necessarily the same as consciously experiencing pain.

If we genuinely care about protecting life, shouldn't we also care about the life of the woman who is already here? Being "pro-life" should mean more than just making sure a baby is born. It should also mean supporting mothers, providing affordable healthcare and childcare, protecting them from poverty and domestic violence, and making sure they have real support if they choose to have a child.

Because forcing someone to continue a pregnancy is not the same thing as supporting them through it.

I fully agree with this too! I just only talked about the already living kids because I am a "kid" myself and would rather walk through hell its self then watch other kids go threw something similar to what I did

We are all clump of cells, aren't we? It's tragic that you try to justify murder. Science and biology clearly says that life begins at the moment of conception. Pro-choice is literally pro-death ideology. Murder never can be justified. The right to be born and to live is the fundamental human right and precondition to all other rights.

Yes, we are a cluster of cells; saying that life begins at fertilization is of course wrong—after all, just before that, a sperm or an egg cell is also a living cell. Their union doesn't immediately create a complete individual. It isn't exactly "life" that needs protecting, but rather the mind and the sentient person who deserve a life of dignity. A cluster of more or less differentiated cells possesses no consciousness. Following your line of reasoning, any cell in your body would have to be preserved, since it carries your genetic makeup in its nucleus and could theoretically allow for the creation of a clone of you—a full-fledged human being. I am convinced that terminating a pregnancy within a reasonable timeframe after conception is by no means murder. Observe how life really works.Life feeds, first and foremost, on the death of other living beings; that is the cruel reality of a system willed by God (if He exists): that living beings devour one another to survive and evolve. You make women who choose to terminate a pregnancy feel guilty by labeling them criminals. What hypocrisy—if you want to support life, start by helping the people who are already alive. Stop eating meat if you believe life shouldn't be taken; after all, it is the act of killing that makes it possible, and even eating a fruit or a vegetable means killing a living thing.

Yes, we are a cluster of cells; saying that life begins at fertilization is of course wrong—after all, just before that, a sperm or an egg cell is also a living cell. Their union doesn't immediately create a complete individual. It isn't exactly "life" that needs protecting, but rather the mind and the sentient person who deserve a life of dignity. A cluster of more or less differentiated cells possesses no consciousness. Following your line of reasoning, any cell in your body would have to be preserved, since it carries your genetic makeup in its nucleus and could theoretically allow for the creation of a clone of you—a full-fledged human being. I am convinced that terminating a pregnancy within a reasonable timeframe after conception is by no means murder. Observe how life really works.Life feeds, first and foremost, on the death of other living beings; that is the cruel reality of a system willed by God (if He exists): that living beings devour one another to survive and evolve. You make women who choose to terminate a pregnancy feel guilty by labeling them criminals. What hypocrisy—if you want to support life, start by helping the people who are already alive. Stop eating meat if you believe life shouldn't be taken; after all, it is the act of killing that makes it possible, and even eating a fruit or a vegetable means killing a living thing.

Sperm is not a person, sperm carries only half of genetic material. When it successfully combines with egg cell, which carries the other half, then the new DNA is formed and life begins. That's a simple biology which you seem to not understand at all. Your opinion about when the life starts, just like mine, is irrelevant because it's not subjective - like I've already explained, the science clearly says when life begins. If you don't trust me, do a research by yourself. Other parts of your comment are clear manipulation and lies - we have all seen in your comments on other forums which are full of toxicity and hate toward all religions. You probably hate yourself subconsciously as well. It's very sad to see that you grew old and still unable to get rid of hate. Almost all your posts are focused on negativity and your only goals are to win an argument (which you haven't succeeded in any forum if I remember well) and to aggressively promote your opinions. This time you decided to change your tone and tactic but it still doesn't work. But, nice try ☺.

How do you know that I don't help people? People in wombs are already alive (seriously, check what science says). If you refer to people who are already born, how do you know that I don't help them? Where exactly did I say that I judge women who decide to kill their babies? I said that I judge their behaviour, not them. What about women who are not born yet? The aren't important for you? Also, tell me please what when woman kill her unborn child? You would leave her suffering, just like real a pro-death person.

Your logic about stop eating meat and plants and that God is cruel is hilarious. Plants and animals have to be respected and protected, but they aren't people and of course we will eat them. Here you pretend that you are questioning God's existence just to present yourself objective, while you have already aggressively attacked almost every person who believes in God on other forums. So, nice try again ☺. Abortion is not only a religious question, you biased people can't understand that at all for some reason.

I really don't know why you are full of toxicity and hate. I understand that it makes you miserable and that you hate life and everything connected with it, but it's not healthy for you. Maybe, just maybe, you should work on yourself.

Unborns aren't people=Jews aren't people=blacks aren't people.... there is no difference between these claims. All people deserve a chance to live and to build their life. "The mind and sentient person and not the life" you say. That means you want to kill all retards and people in comma. That's exaclty what the biggest dictators and warlords did - they would get rid of "unuseful" people. Who are you to decide who should live or die?

For those women in pregnancy who need help: https://www.1000plus.net/de-de, https://www.profemina.org/de-de

To eat a fruit or an animal is not murder. Murder is about ending human life, not about ending plants´ or animals´ life.

"unborn is not "yet to be person", it's an unique person with his/her own unique DNA"................isn't that all people though? unborn or not. isn't that the already living children that people don't seem to be doing anything to protect in the US? In the end the woman who is pregnant is the ONLY person who gets to choose weather she wants to keep the LITERAL clump of cells or not. it is the ALREADY LIVING persons choice on what to do with THEIR body (and that goes for a lot of other things too) at the end of the day I bet the person getting the abortion isn't thinking and or caring if you think its murder, because who knows what's that woman/person went threw before they made that choice, who knows what that woman/person is presently going threw. at the end of the day it is NOT your choice and it is NOT your body. and if you are actually "pro life" (if you live in America that is) you would be doing everything to make sure the ALREADY LIVING children are safe and protected making sure they stay alive instead of getting shot at a place where they are supposed to feel safe or are told is safe. and what happens when the adults who didn't want kids have no other choice but to have the kid. abuse and neglect that is what. as someone who went threw a similar minor issue being divorce, I cant sum up what a kid in a worse situation like where their parents don't even want them would go threw because it has been a year since I tried to km$ because of how heavy a simple divorce was waying on my shoulders and still is, I am only a few months clean from $h that's how hard it is. so before you whine about women "murdering" a clump of cells with a unique set of DNA think about what the child would go threw if the parents didn't even want them born

thank you for your time

There is a fundamental mistake that you make from the begining of your rant: There is absolutely no debate on wether a "clump of cells" is alive or even if it's "human" or not;: The moment an egg is fertilized, it is alive and belonging to Homo sapiens.

This is not a debate. This is a biological fact.


The debate on abortion is about what qualifies as a person. There are several possibilities here, starting at fertilization, implantation, fetal stage, viability... but it's not about "literal clump of cells", "life", or "human".

For the rest of your message, I'd also like to clarify something: A woman doesn't get pregnant by magic. As far as I know, human reproduction involves intercourse, thus a biological male as a main actor with the biological female. It's a teamwork, not a solo work, yet the whole "my body my choice" ideology tends to forget that women have their fun time with a man, then refuse to: 1) accept that fatherhood should aslo be part of the debate (in good or bad). 2) that most people don't protect themselves and then whine when they get the consequences of their actions.


Relative to your conclusion: You don't know what people were aborted or died early in "shitty places" or "family don't want child" would feel like. It's not because you were born in a poor environment that you wish you'd never been born the same way that it's not because you attempted your life that most children living through a divorce do the same.

If we are into personal experience things too, I'd argue that abortion can be forced onto a woman too and that she can suffer her whole life from this as well. It's not only about "my body my choice" = right for abortion; it can also be "my body my choice" = right not to abort because my partner wants me to.

My opinion. There is nothing worse than growing up feeling like your parents birthed you because they had to. Unplanned pregnancies aren't a result of bad behavior or lack of morals. A lot of the "pro-life" people (not all of them) that I have encountered of late don't seem to care so much about saving a life by restricting access to abortion as they hope that doing so will make people more likely to wait for marriage before sleeping together, which, with people being people, is incredibly naive at best. I personally know at least three married couples in which the women had abortions because either A) they just didn't want children, 😎 they weren't in a place where they were ready to be parents, or C) they just couldn't handle any more children. All of them took precautions, but those aren't 100% effective (exactly what happened with Jing and me)

When Jing missed her period, and we got the positive test, I told her that I would stand by whatever decision she made and pay the costs. For the first month, it was really looking like we were going to go the abortion route, but in the end, she told me she couldn't do it and here we are, for better or worse.

My opinion. There is nothing worse than growing up feeling like your parents birthed you because they had to. Unplanned pregnancies aren't a result of bad behavior or lack of morals. A lot of the "pro-life" people (not all of them) that I have encountered of late don't seem to care so much about saving a life by restricting access to abortion as they hope that doing so will make people more likely to wait for marriage before sleeping together, which, with people being people, is incredibly naive at best. I personally know at least three married couples in which the women had abortions because either A) they just didn't want children, 😎 they weren't in a place where they were ready to be parents, or C) they just couldn't handle any more children. All of them took precautions, but those aren't 100% effective (exactly what happened with Jing and me)

When Jing missed her period, and we got the positive test, I told her that I would stand by whatever decision she made and pay the costs. For the first month, it was really looking like we were going to go the abortion route, but in the end, she told me she couldn't do it and here we are, for better or worse.

So it's better to kill a person to "save" him/her from suffering? Lol... how do you know will the person suffer in life or no? Even if you somehow get the knowledge (it's impossible, but still) who are you to decide who has the right to live?

It's ridiculous to repeat like a parrot that pro-life people don't care about anybody - MariaRosary has already gave you 2 links on prolife organisations which offers help for women during pregnancy and after pregnancy. There are also Betlehem Association, Caritas, Catholic orders and many more. On the other hand, pro-death people only wants child to be murdered and to take the money and sell the body parts just like Planned Parenthood does. In fact, that organisation has killed more people than Hitler (and they are still active) - I think that any other comment about their agenda is unnecessary.

How did the baby arrive into Jing? A stork delivered it? If you don't know that sex can result in pregnancy, then you should retake biology classes. The only 100 percent effective contraception is abstinence. All others are below 100 percent, some of them even kill the child deliberately.

You told that you wanted to support Jing whatever she decides and that you were ready to cover the bill. That means that you were ready to pay for an assasination of your own child. That's disgusting. I am glad that Jing refused to kill your baby. I'm sure that now both of you are happy and that you enjoy spending time with your child. I don't know does this mean anything to you or to others from this forum, but I will pray for your child before sleeping (it's already 9 pm here), for you, Jing and all others who participated in this forum. And for myself as well ☺️.

Mate, abortion is murder and murder is a complete evil. Please wake up.

@Lianshen, the baby is not the part of mother's body. I have never seen the person who has 2 heads, 2 stomachs, 4 legs, 4 arms,...

You pointed it out well that people usually don't debate is it alive or not, they debate is it a perspn or no. They do the same what Hitler, Mengele, Stalin, Lenin, Mao Zedong, Atilla, Genghis Khan and other dictators and warlords did (and still do) - they try to persuade themselves that some group of people aren't persons to justify their killings. That's disgusting. Same those people have their mouths full of inclusivity, equality and tolerance - the things which they restrict to the unborn people. Their hipocricy can't be bigger.

@Korisnik... wow.. opionated much?

I have two children from a previous marriage, I think I've got a good handle on how biology works, dude. But hey, you stick with 100% abstinence card and see how that works out, but wait, we're not puritantical pricks, unlike you. Who tf, are you are you to lecture me?!

You got kids? Come back to me when have some and then we'll talk.

Planned parenthood sells body parts? Provide the link to bs fundamentalist Christian site and their so-called facts. I could use a good laugh.

When I said "I'd pay the costs" I meant with i would pay for the abortion of something that could not live out of the womb, or, should the relationship not work out, she could always rely on me to pay for Hypsoline's maintenance and care (provided I can see her regularly). It was ultimately her decision. SHE is going to carry the baby to term. SHE is going to go through the pain and difficulty of childbirth. Not ME, not a counseling service, HER. She has a CHOICE. But that obviously doesn't mean shit to you because women are chattel slaves and baby factories In your eyes.

What if she had chosen an abortion? Am I to chain her in the closet until she's ready to give birth? If I didn't want the child and she did, what then? Kick in her the stomach? Maybe a coat hanger? Again, ultimately, her CHOICE.

And let me cut you off on the next tired argument, that perhaps I seduced her or forced her into intimacy. Considering that we are still intimate, and that we had been several times before she got pregnant.. it was completely consensual. She's not the type to pushed into anything, and I'd be in prison right now if that wasn't the case.

Go ahead and write your next tired diatribe, I ain't listening. This is exactly why I rarely post on hot topic forums. When you can debate rationally, then I'll listen, otherwise, I would suggest in the future, you open both eyes and close your mouth.