Abortion

Goon split the proverbial baby.... A fetus, is a collection of cells. A parasite is a living thing. So is a baby. Scientifically and clinically speaking a fetus is a collection of cells. A collection of cells that will eventually grow into a living thing. That collection of cells IS dependent on the body of the mother. The mother is most certainly a living thing. I agree, showing a cute baby being murdered to elicit a response of people saying abortion is wrong is manipulative. Actually yes, removing a tape worm is murder if the result is the death of the tape worm. However as humans, we view non human life as different and view the wormicide therefore differently. Should we? Interesting moral question that one and the question before us is abortion not weather tape worms have Buddha nature.

If it is 8 months in the body, it is viable. It can be surgically removed and put in an incubator and the mother can put it up for adoption and choose to never think about it again. But let's try this another way because turn about is fair play. The mother is over the age of 35 years not months old and walking around on this planet. She is having trouble carrying the pregnancy to term due to her age and health conditions. Do we force her to put her life at risk to carry an 8 months in the womb viable fetus to term? If life is sacred, what about hers? That viable fetus while able to be independent of her is still reliant upon her body. If she dies the chance the fetus dies too is exceedingly high. Or we can try to save both with the understanding when you prematurely remove a fetus, you risk it's life. What do we do then? Do you have a solution?

The science clearly shows a fetus under the age of about 24 weeks is completely reliant on the mother or host's body for it's continued existence. A discussion of an 8 month old baby in the womb and one that is under 24 weeks is NOT the same conversation. I realize like many men you may not understand how the female body works and how babies develop. But your ignorance is not proof of a lack of science on this issue. Just evidence that you care so little about this subject and that it is about punishing women for you over science, that you haven't even bothered to look at the scientific information available. Until a fetus is 24 weeks in the womb, it is absolutely a completely fair comparison on a scientific level to compare it to a parasite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability
https://biologydictionary.net/parasitism/

A collection of cells IS NOT A PERSON! IT IS NOT A HUMAN! NOT YET!

Someone bearing false witness as to what a collection of cells is wants others to read ethics and biology? That is rich. Someone calling a collection of cells a human being wants to talk about manipulation? Really??? Bud, you sure you want to do that? Because it's highly unethical and manipulative. Unless you are also proposing the bloody from a bloody nose should be worn forever because to wipe it away and throw the tissue in the trash is to throw away a baby. I DID study some biology. I am trained in medical herbalism, massage therapy thai and swedish, had to study many hours of biology to earn that certification in my state. I am not a medical doctor, but, not all that far off.

Yes the rights of the unborn. What about the rights of the already born and walking around? hmm? Now you could choose to be up in arms complaining that science needs to create a uterus so MEN can carry the baby in the event the woman doesn't want to. But instead you are here argueing you should get to control and make decisions for a sovereign adult educated human being with a life that she is financially responsible for. Who the hell do you think you are to make decisions like that for other people?

Your position boils down to simply wanting to control other people. You get to control yourself. You don't get to choose for other people. They get to choose what makes sense for their own life and body. Why should YOU get to own your body but somehow mine is public property? Hmmm?

It is entirely about religion and patriarchy. At least where I live it is.

In this country you can't get an abortion in the 8th month. How do you murder something by removing it if it can survive outside of you already? It is only guaranteed death up until the 24th week. After that it can be removed and quite possibly kept alive. So why aren't you out there bleating like a goat at medical science to do better rather than sitting here trying to dictate to sovereign human beings what they should and should not be able to do with their own body. On WHO's authority if not God's should they be forced to carry to term in? Certainly not yours just another socvereign no body with personal opinions on someone else's personal issues that have nothing to do with you personally?

Take a seat.

You can be arrogant as You want, I really don't care.

See, it's matter of time and technology, when the "fetus" will he able to survive in another kind of incubator. What will You say then?

Another thing - many people are hospitalized, and they can't live without any help or aparature. Who should decide about turn them off?

The fetus has unique DNA, it's future person, a human. You might think about it as nothing yet, but many people thinks different.

You are screaming your own opinions, and yet You forbid my own? The difference is: my opinion somehow tries to defend life, your opinion doesn't care.

Nowhere I said about specific situations, like mother's life in danger. I was relating to calling fetus a "parasite". But I see it triggered You for some reason 🙂

Of couese there are some circumstances and sitations where we just have to choose lesser evil. Is it too young person being pregnant, or someone's life in danger. And this is different than making abortion so common like tooth extraction.

I also didnt use God as authority here.

And the last thing: sure, your body, your choice. You have the choice when You decide to go to the bed with someone. Then You should know the risk, and take the responsibility.

Now, You sit down please and make some reflection on that.

Ps: I also see You don't understand what parasite is. You read the definition of parasite, and You just associate it with pregnancy. It's not correct, anyway.

And stop being so emotional. Less ideology, more epathy please.

I agree that some people are not fit to be parents, but there is something called adoption. I don't think abortion should be taken lightly, you can't just kill things and think it's fine just because it's legal.

I understand that babies can only be considered as such after a certain amount of time, like @Wildflower-Farm said, but even cells are alive, and I don't think it's right to decide wether a creature of any sort lives or dies. Unless your life is threatened by it or something like that, it's not your soul/existence, so it's not your choice. Like I said before, there is always adoption.

Thanksss @Miss_Penpal!! I understand what you say but i didnt mean to say that abortion should be allowed easily. I am sorry if i make people misunderstand my opinion. But for example in case of a crime like rape i think it should be allowed. And with persons that are super careless and dont even care about it i am just not sure. And i think the opinion of the doctor is also important.

But i have another question: if you would be victim of a crime i think you should have the right of abortion. But a different question is even IF it is allowed, can you really DO that. I would not be able to do that if it is in my belly i would feel not right for the rest of my life. I am sure of that. And that would make the crime even worse i think. But that is personal and i think in that case every victim should choose for themselves. But what if the parents dont agree with your choice then i really dont know what i would do. I am sorry if nobody understands what i am trying to say but if i would be forced by my parents to do abortion if i would be the victim i think that i would feel victim TWICE and the baby too. But that is how i think about it and it may be very different for someone else.

And i know the topic is super difficult so thank you that you replied in a nice way even if you agree or disagree. 🙏🙏

Thanksss @Miss_Penpal!! I understand what you say but i didnt mean to say that abortion should be allowed easily. I am sorry if i make people misunderstand my opinion. But for example in case of a crime like rape i think it should be allowed. And with persons that are super careless and dont even care about it i am just not sure. And i think the opinion of the doctor is also important.

But i have another question: if you would be victim of a crime i think you should have the right of abortion. But a different question is even IF it is allowed, can you really DO that. I would not be able to do that if it is in my belly i would feel not right for the rest of my life. I am sure of that. And that would make the crime even worse i think. But that is personal and i think in that case every victim should choose for themselves. But what if the parents dont agree with your choice then i really dont know what i would do. I am sorry if nobody understands what i am trying to say but if i would be forced by my parents to do abortion if i would be the victim i think that i would feel victim TWICE and the baby too. But that is how i think about it and it may be very different for someone else.

And i know the topic is super difficult so thank you that you replied in a nice way even if you agree or disagree. 🙏🙏

The rape is thing that, I believe, justify the abortion. It's just... Of course it's hard, but if someone decide to give a birth for this child, it's brave. That's for sure. And I can imagine it must be difficult, when someone... I don't know. Looking at this child, may bring terrible memories for mother.

And these things always should meet with therapy or consultation with psychologist.

I condemn abortion as common thing, common, simple, when someone wants to make it just another form of anticonception.

To some extent I agree. Abortion, is a tragedy. It should involve a lot of soul searching and thought. It is absolutely not an issue to take lightly. I agree too there is another option called adoption. But something I hope you will consider about that. It still involves having a baby. Which means where I am anyway, hospital bills through the roof in price. It means time for your body to heal and time you can't go to work. It means other difficulties and stuff. While I am fine encouraging people to choose this route, I am not fine making it the only legal option for these reasons mentioned. For some the cost of the medical care is hugely devestating as is losing time at work. It isn't just an issue of am I fit to parent. It is also an issue of, can I afford to have it? Can I afford to raise it for the first few months after losing so much time at work? Can I afford it's immediate needs and needs as it grows? They don't stay infants forever.

Cells are not alive. Cells, do not even have a heart beat. So let's not distort the science here. If you choose to view them as alive because they can develop into a living being that is absolutely your perogative. I am NOT pro abortion. I am pro choice. I believe every woman must make her own decisions about this and that men have no place in that decision making unless they have a legal partnership with the woman with the choice. Then they do deserve a voice for consideration but the final decision even then must be hers.

Do you eat eggs? What about meat?

Pregnancies can and do cause life threatening complications for the mother sometimes. They can also be the result of incest and/or rape. Can you imagine being raped by Uncle Bob at 14 and having to spend the rest of your life looking at his face in the face of the resulting child? This is real. It DOES happen. It is even more common than we realize. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/genenic-tests-reveal-incestuous-family-history/story?id=12889895

Like you, I think for many adoption is a great solution. But I am not inclined to tell that 10 year old girl raped by uncle Bob, that she must allow that to fester in her body for nearly a year, if she prefers not to. Nor am I willing to tell a woman who can't afford to miss work and pay hospital bills that will destroy her, that she has to have a baby she doesn't want.

Abortion, must remain a choice each individual woman can choose for her own reasons. I would however, encourage society to make medical care for this issue at least free, and make education and pre school free by covering them in taxes. Because the costs can majorly impact one's decision and if they were not a concern more women might choose adoption over abortion and I don't think for many it even is a choice without those things being covered so they truly do have choice. Society can encourage women to keep it or go with adoption. However, any woman must be free from being punished if she chooses NOT to have it. The less screwed being a single mother leaves women, the more often they may choose to go for it. Which would be great. I am pro choice. Not pro abortion.

I agree that some people are not fit to be parents, but there is something called adoption. I don't think abortion should be taken lightly, you can't just kill things and think it's fine just because it's legal.

I understand that babies can only be considered as such after a certain amount of time, like @Wildflower-Farm said, but even cells are alive, and I don't think it's right to decide wether a creature of any sort lives or dies. Unless your life is threatened by it or something like that, it's not your soul/existence, so it's not your choice. Like I said before, there is always adoption.

If i got pregnant (and it could only happen by rape since i have always been careful and I know the precautions to take for consensual sex )and I couldn’t abort i’d kill myself,i am 1000% sure.

I got close to be raped several times and you all cannot understand the feeling.

did you guys know that if a woman keeps a baby that was the consequence of her rape if MANY cases the mom will always reject the baby and never love him/her?

You can be arrogant as You want, I really don't care.

See, it's matter of time and technology, when the "fetus" will he able to survive in another kind of incubator. What will You say then?

Another thing - many people are hospitalized, and they can't live without any help or aparature. Who should decide about turn them off?

The fetus has unique DNA, it's future person, a human. You might think about it as nothing yet, but many people thinks different.

You are screaming your own opinions, and yet You forbid my own? The difference is: my opinion somehow tries to defend life, your opinion doesn't care.

Nowhere I said about specific situations, like mother's life in danger. I was relating to calling fetus a "parasite". But I see it triggered You for some reason 🙂

Of couese there are some circumstances and sitations where we just have to choose lesser evil. Is it too young person being pregnant, or someone's life in danger. And this is different than making abortion so common like tooth extraction.

I also didnt use God as authority here.

And the last thing: sure, your body, your choice. You have the choice when You decide to go to the bed with someone. Then You should know the risk, and take the responsibility.

Now, You sit down please and make some reflection on that.

Ps: I also see You don't understand what parasite is. You read the definition of parasite, and You just associate it with pregnancy. It's not correct, anyway.

And stop being so emotional. Less ideology, more epathy please.

When a fetus can survive in an incubator, then I will say coolz. Let's take it out if she wants to and put it there and she can walk away and get on with her life and leave it to someone else to raise if she wants to. You seem to be trying to paint me as pro death. I am pro choice. Not pro death. I don't think we should kill as many fetuses as we humanly can. Quite the opposite. I am for any methods society can offer to women to encourage them to keep their fetuses. I am just opposed to criminalizing and making choice on this issue illegal, because every situation is different and at the end of the day it is her body not mine or yours and her situation not mine or yours so we must respect her choice.

The fetus, MIGHT be a potential future person. You assert how I think about it. You are not in my head. For all you know, my personal choices may not reflect my views on this issue. Which in fact they do not and would not. However, those are my choices and it is my body and my right to choose for me. Not for others. And I will fight to the death if I must even though my personal choice may not match up with my views of this issue, for every woman to have the ability to choose without fear of punishment for her choice made based on her own personal circumstances. Circumstances which may not be the same as my own upon which I might make my own decision.

Many people do think different. Usually they are religious fundis I have found and men who seek to control and abuse women. Men who have no idea about how babies develop, how the female body works, or the many ways babies can be put into a woman and with no experience with any of those ways except the ones that are beautiful.

Forbid? No. I just place no value on it as you don't even know and can't be asked to use the google to even make yourself aware of the point at which a fetus becomes viable. So clearly, your stake in this is a lot lower than that of any woman here communicating on this subject as is your knowledge about this issue and the female body, and what it is like to be a woman in this world. For example where I live women make 30% less than men. They get a max of 3 months leave to have a baby UNPAID. The average cost to have a baby where I am sitting is right up around thirty thousand dollars. Remember no pay check for 3 months with that bill. The average cost to raise a child where I am in a middle class middle of the road area is over 300 thousand. Which means where I am sitting you can double it. That is in addition to the medical bills for delivery. The man, pays 15% unless you were married at the time the baby was conceived, in which case he pays somewhere usually between 15% and half. Imagine you are a college student, paying 60 thousands for your degree per year before the costs of housing and everything else, and now you have no pay check for 3 months and a 30 thousand dollar bill and a man responsible for 15% of it. Would you want to have it? How will you eat? These are the practical matters some women must consider. Every situation is different. But who are you to saddle some woman you have ever known with that burden? Are you going to step up and assume those costs for her? Because if not, why do you get a vote given you can't carry a child yourself and you are not offering to assume the costs? A woman's personal choice on this issue falls into a category I call NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

And now you are on a totally different issue altogether. Do you want to discuss assisted suicide in cases where there is no quality of life? Or do you want to talk about abortion? Pick one. But the short answer is, depending how they end up in that state often they have written down what they want done should they be in that state. So I would argue, we honor their wishes. Finally decision made by those who love them in accordance with their stated wish, the family should decide.

And again you assert that you know what I care about and what I don't. What kind of life do you think that baby has with a mother who had to quit uni to pay hospital bills? Works making $7 an hour, what kind of future can she offer it? What kind of educational opportunity can she give it? Do you want to pay for it's quality of life? 300 thousand plus? Are you going to do that? I have not once heard you advocate that society should offer her money or free childcare or anything else to assist her. Because that would come out of you. I am happy to pay more in taxes to support her. But I can not afford all alone to cover the costs for every woman you want to force to produce offspring. So already I am doing more than you are pushing for higher taxes here to cover exactly this situation. How in hell is that not caring? What are you doing? Aside from not even taking the time to figure out when a baby is viable that you care sooooooo much about that you are seeking to force women to have it? hmmm? Well? I mean you love the unborn so much you couldn't even be asked to do a google search on their behalf. Your opinion, seeks to enslave women and force them into dependency. Your position on this issue seeks to punish women and to create male supremacy over women. I see right through you dear.

The parasite bit didn't trigger me. The watching a male make a stupid argument about what is none of his business did.

Correct. You used your own educated self to lazy to do a google search as the authority. Just as bad don't you think? What if this conversation were about something else? Say the economy, and you were justifying your opinion from a position of too lazy to do a google search on the specific facts of the economic issue? Would you view your position and opinion as worthy of being heard then? How is this different? Because for women it isn't different. This is an issue of economics, as much as it is one of morality. Almost 1 in 4 undergraduate women are the victims of rape which means they didn't choose to have sex and make a baby. And that stat doesn't even cover the rest of women for whom I would assume the number to be similar. https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

Actually I didn't do that. Someone else did. I merely made the point that based on the definition it was a fair comparison until week 24.

Really? The one presenting websites from legitimate sources of information is making the emotional argument while the one who can't even bother to look up evidence to base his opinion on is argueing fact???? BUahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Geezus, I just can't stop....

Be more empathetic? Why? Because I am a woman and I am smarter than you and you can't handle my arguments without being unlazy and being lazy is preferable because you care about this issue soooo much as it's impact on you is so extreme?

But why not. I personally believe that abortion isn't murder because murder is when you take someones life. Even if a foetus would be a living creature (wich it isn't, it's a parasite) it doesn't have a life. However the mother does and her life or mental health can be safed by removing this creature in her stomach. This foetus isn't a baby you are making an emotional desision where you see a cute baby violentely being murdred. But it is a foetus and as long as it sits in his mother stomach it is sipmly a parisite living trough her. So she can do with her parisite what she wants. Or is removing a tapeworm murder aswell?

The parasite thing is really a misconception of biology. In most definition, parasitism is:

• Between 2 species. Child is same species.
• Induce loss of reproductive success. - it's the opposite for a mother.
• Is harmful to the host (only some minor adverse effects for a huge gain to the mother).
• Are harmful, but also not necessary to the host - Having children is very much needed on a biological/evolutionnary viewpoint.
• Is on/within host's tissues - Mammals have placenta making child separated from all other tissues of the mother.
• Trigger antibodies in the host system - Mother does the opposite and inhibits antibodies.
• "Come from outside" and invade the host. Pregnancy is an integral part of our repoduction, hence fetus is not an invad

There are some stuff to complete, but I think it's enough to say that the parasite label is not true, and probably aiming to be pejorative.

Other thing in considering the embryo not to be living is a very sensitive argument as it refers to the grain of rice problem, just like so many things in biolody (definition of species for instance) - At what precise moment can you draw a line between embryo and fetus (which is considered human in France) is a very difficult question that mainly ideology has given an answer to.

However, the moment at which the egg is fertilized, then the whole devolpment of the embryo is determined, including the position of your head, spine, ,digestive system...

By the way, if you have a fetus in your stomach, you shouldn't worry about abortion as it won't survive there, but about being jailed, because I'm pretty sure that consuming a human fetus is not very legal 😉

If it is 8 months in the body, it is viable. It can be surgically removed and put in an incubator and the mother can put it up for adoption and choose to never think about it again. But let's try this another way because turn about is fair play. The mother is over the age of 35 years not months old and walking around on this planet. She is having trouble carrying the pregnancy to term due to her age and health conditions. Do we force her to put her life at risk to carry an 8 months in the womb viable fetus to term? If life is sacred, what about hers? That viable fetus while able to be independent of her is still reliant upon her body. If she dies the chance the fetus dies too is exceedingly high. Or we can try to save both with the understanding when you prematurely remove a fetus, you risk it's life. What do we do then? Do you have a solution?

This is a strawman argument. Most of "pro life" people are not against abortion in all its forms, but include exceptions, namely for health concern (mother and children) or rape cases. From what I remember, this is more or less how things were going on Poland for instance.

The science clearly shows a fetus under the age of about 24 weeks is completely reliant on the mother or host's body for it's continued existence.

Human progenies are completely reliant on their mother for years because the newborn is not fully developed at birth (essentially because the head is particularly big and a bigger one wouldn't pass through the pelvic opening). Remove all the comfy technology, and tadam, no child can survive without being fed and taken care of by a mother, be it of substitution.
Now, add more technology as things are going very fast, and you can grow an embryo into a pouch outside of the mother's womb. (It may sound dystopic, but it has been in development for years already).

In the first case, is the newborn a "parasitic" clump of cells? In the second case, is the egg already an individual?

Cells are not alive. Cells, do not even have a heart beat. So let's not distort the science here.

I beg to differ. Cells are pretty much very alive and if they were not, they you would have serious problems. Furthermore, there are many species without heart; is a tree not alive? Or jellyfish, sponges, starfish? In the opposite, is an octopus more living than us with its 3 hearts?

To some extent I agree. Abortion, is a tragedy. It should involve a lot of soul searching and thought. It is absolutely not an issue to take lightly. I agree too there is another option called adoption. But something I hope you will consider about that. It still involves having a baby. Which means where I am anyway, hospital bills through the roof in price. It means time for your body to heal and time you can't go to work. It means other difficulties and stuff. While I am fine encouraging people to choose this route, I am not fine making it the only legal option for these reasons mentioned. For some the cost of the medical care is hugely devestating as is losing time at work. It isn't just an issue of am I fit to parent. It is also an issue of, can I afford to have it? Can I afford to raise it for the first few months after losing so much time at work? Can I afford it's immediate needs and needs as it grows? They don't stay infants forever.

Cells are not alive. Cells, do not even have a heart beat. So let's not distort the science here. If you choose to view them as alive because they can develop into a living being that is absolutely your perogative. I am NOT pro abortion. I am pro choice. I believe every woman must make her own decisions about this and that men have no place in that decision making unless they have a legal partnership with the woman with the choice. Then they do deserve a voice for consideration but the final decision even then must be hers.

Do you eat eggs? What about meat?

Pregnancies can and do cause life threatening complications for the mother sometimes. They can also be the result of incest and/or rape. Can you imagine being raped by Uncle Bob at 14 and having to spend the rest of your life looking at his face in the face of the resulting child? This is real. It DOES happen. It is even more common than we realize. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/genenic-tests-reveal-incestuous-family-history/story?id=12889895

Like you, I think for many adoption is a great solution. But I am not inclined to tell that 10 year old girl raped by uncle Bob, that she must allow that to fester in her body for nearly a year, if she prefers not to. Nor am I willing to tell a woman who can't afford to miss work and pay hospital bills that will destroy her, that she has to have a baby she doesn't want.

Abortion, must remain a choice each individual woman can choose for her own reasons. I would however, encourage society to make medical care for this issue at least free, and make education and pre school free by covering them in taxes. Because the costs can majorly impact one's decision and if they were not a concern more women might choose adoption over abortion and I don't think for many it even is a choice without those things being covered so they truly do have choice. Society can encourage women to keep it or go with adoption. However, any woman must be free from being punished if she chooses NOT to have it. The less screwed being a single mother leaves women, the more often they may choose to go for it. Which would be great. I am pro choice. Not pro abortion.

I also agree with you to some extent. I understand that the mother's choice is important, I just meant that abortion shouldn't be the first thing a person thinks about when they don't want a child. There are many other ways to get rid of a baby than to kill it. I myself am not pro abortion, but that doesn't mean I'm completely against it and believe it should be illegal. As much as I can choose not to use that resource, other women can choose to use it if they want to. Even if I hate it, it's not my decision to make, and I'm just saying what I think about abortion. I can't speak for others and I don't mean to do so, that would be selfish and hypocritical.

As for cells, it depends on what is your definition of being 'alive'. I think they are alive, in some way, because if something can die, then that means it's alive. Also, cells are the smallest unit of life that can perform all the functions necessary for living, including metabolism, reproduction, and responding to stimuli. Heartbeat is not important, as you can learn from plants, Cnidarians, echinoderms, etc. There are even single-celled organisms, which are considered both alive and a cell.

There are only 3 choices when the birth control pill efficacy fails. Have it and keep it, Abort it, have it put it up for adoption. I don't think anyone starts looking at abortion. I think they start by looking at the range of options. Then they consider each one in turn and in no particular order.

That is the point. Something without a heart beat and or brain function really can't die in any meaningful or scientifically accurate sense as it was never technically alive. It can grow into liveness. And at that point I won't disagree there are some moral and ethical issues that deserve to get the time of day in such a decision. In the sense of humans, a heart beat defines life as does brain function. We are not discussing plants. We are talking about human offspring. But any time you want to discuss botany I am totally there to nerd out.

When a fetus can survive in an incubator, then I will say coolz. Let's take it out if she wants to and put it there and she can walk away and get on with her life and leave it to someone else to raise if she wants to. You seem to be trying to paint me as pro death. I am pro choice. Not pro death. I don't think we should kill as many fetuses as we humanly can. Quite the opposite. I am for any methods society can offer to women to encourage them to keep their fetuses. I am just opposed to criminalizing and making choice on this issue illegal, because every situation is different and at the end of the day it is her body not mine or yours and her situation not mine or yours so we must respect her choice.

The fetus, MIGHT be a potential future person. You assert how I think about it. You are not in my head. For all you know, my personal choices may not reflect my views on this issue. Which in fact they do not and would not. However, those are my choices and it is my body and my right to choose for me. Not for others. And I will fight to the death if I must even though my personal choice may not match up with my views of this issue, for every woman to have the ability to choose without fear of punishment for her choice made based on her own personal circumstances. Circumstances which may not be the same as my own upon which I might make my own decision.

Many people do think different. Usually they are religious fundis I have found and men who seek to control and abuse women. Men who have no idea about how babies develop, how the female body works, or the many ways babies can be put into a woman and with no experience with any of those ways except the ones that are beautiful.

Forbid? No. I just place no value on it as you don't even know and can't be asked to use the google to even make yourself aware of the point at which a fetus becomes viable. So clearly, your stake in this is a lot lower than that of any woman here communicating on this subject as is your knowledge about this issue and the female body, and what it is like to be a woman in this world. For example where I live women make 30% less than men. They get a max of 3 months leave to have a baby UNPAID. The average cost to have a baby where I am sitting is right up around thirty thousand dollars. Remember no pay check for 3 months with that bill. The average cost to raise a child where I am in a middle class middle of the road area is over 300 thousand. Which means where I am sitting you can double it. That is in addition to the medical bills for delivery. The man, pays 15% unless you were married at the time the baby was conceived, in which case he pays somewhere usually between 15% and half. Imagine you are a college student, paying 60 thousands for your degree per year before the costs of housing and everything else, and now you have no pay check for 3 months and a 30 thousand dollar bill and a man responsible for 15% of it. Would you want to have it? How will you eat? These are the practical matters some women must consider. Every situation is different. But who are you to saddle some woman you have ever known with that burden? Are you going to step up and assume those costs for her? Because if not, why do you get a vote given you can't carry a child yourself and you are not offering to assume the costs? A woman's personal choice on this issue falls into a category I call NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

And now you are on a totally different issue altogether. Do you want to discuss assisted suicide in cases where there is no quality of life? Or do you want to talk about abortion? Pick one. But the short answer is, depending how they end up in that state often they have written down what they want done should they be in that state. So I would argue, we honor their wishes. Finally decision made by those who love them in accordance with their stated wish, the family should decide.

And again you assert that you know what I care about and what I don't. What kind of life do you think that baby has with a mother who had to quit uni to pay hospital bills? Works making $7 an hour, what kind of future can she offer it? What kind of educational opportunity can she give it? Do you want to pay for it's quality of life? 300 thousand plus? Are you going to do that? I have not once heard you advocate that society should offer her money or free childcare or anything else to assist her. Because that would come out of you. I am happy to pay more in taxes to support her. But I can not afford all alone to cover the costs for every woman you want to force to produce offspring. So already I am doing more than you are pushing for higher taxes here to cover exactly this situation. How in hell is that not caring? What are you doing? Aside from not even taking the time to figure out when a baby is viable that you care sooooooo much about that you are seeking to force women to have it? hmmm? Well? I mean you love the unborn so much you couldn't even be asked to do a google search on their behalf. Your opinion, seeks to enslave women and force them into dependency. Your position on this issue seeks to punish women and to create male supremacy over women. I see right through you dear.

The parasite bit didn't trigger me. The watching a male make a stupid argument about what is none of his business did.

Correct. You used your own educated self to lazy to do a google search as the authority. Just as bad don't you think? What if this conversation were about something else? Say the economy, and you were justifying your opinion from a position of too lazy to do a google search on the specific facts of the economic issue? Would you view your position and opinion as worthy of being heard then? How is this different? Because for women it isn't different. This is an issue of economics, as much as it is one of morality. Almost 1 in 4 undergraduate women are the victims of rape which means they didn't choose to have sex and make a baby. And that stat doesn't even cover the rest of women for whom I would assume the number to be similar. https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

Actually I didn't do that. Someone else did. I merely made the point that based on the definition it was a fair comparison until week 24.

Really? The one presenting websites from legitimate sources of information is making the emotional argument while the one who can't even bother to look up evidence to base his opinion on is argueing fact???? BUahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Geezus, I just can't stop....

Be more empathetic? Why? Because I am a woman and I am smarter than you and you can't handle my arguments without being unlazy and being lazy is preferable because you care about this issue soooo much as it's impact on you is so extreme?

You write too much to answer it in neat and organized way.

At first, I will ignore all Your speech about "it's my choice", while I told You, of course, I agree. It is your choice, go to bed with a man, or not. But if You do, take the risk and potential consequences. If Yoh don't want child, then give it to the orphanage.

1. Yes, it MIGHT be potential person, so for me it is. You know, I value every potential life, especially the life that comes from humans. I believe fetus is enough to call it a human, and I believe that our civilisation should, currently be far over the idea of how to perceive our specie, more than "oh, it's just few cells, nothing more".

Oh, the old, boring song about how men wants opress woman. I thought it's exploited argument since few years, but okay. You still believe in that leftist thing.

2. Oh, You touch very important subject! If women suffer from such financial policy, then let me ask You:

Would'nt it be better to focus and to demand better social policy and care for mothers, instead of building another abortion clinic, where the unborn are throw away to the trash can?

You talk about how hard it is to be women, but I don't agree that abortion is the solve for any of that problem.

I won't be pointing Your mistakes about biological aspect, since Lianshen did it.

I won't comment what you said about rape statistics, since it's really trashy info and lie. It's in the manner of "Oh, wait, Your boyfriend touched You, and didn't ask about signed permission on paper?". I know such manipulated statistics, since in Poland they also tried to sell it to people, but saying that almost every one of us knows at least few women that was raped... No.

"BUahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Geezus, I just can't stop"

Sorry, You were right, You are not emotional 🙂 You arw rational, and You stick to the main topic: abortion, so You start saying how hard it is to be women. Okay, I will tell You, it is hard to be a man in these times.

And: don't You dare to say that I don't have any right to talk about such things. I have any right, since I can be father, and I want what is best for the women I love and not only.

But Im trying to take this topic not from "what would be the most comfortable, hmmm", but from: what is the most right.

And like I said, there of course are various situations.

If i got pregnant (and it could only happen by rape since i have always been careful and I know the precautions to take for consensual sex )and I couldn’t abort i’d kill myself,i am 1000% sure.

I got close to be raped several times and you all cannot understand the feeling.

did you guys know that if a woman keeps a baby that was the consequence of her rape if MANY cases the mom will always reject the baby and never love him/her?

That isn't true. It CAN happen. It is highly unlikely to happen but it isn't an impossibility. There is no such thing as a birth control option that is 100% effective. But the chances of it failing are absolutely extremely low. There is but 1 method to avoid pregnancy 100% effectively. That is called being a virgin and staying one. Though.... The christians keep insisting that even this method is not 100%, and fails when God gets cheeky, but the last time that happened was 2000 years ago so what are the chances really? So if there is no way to prevent pregnancy absolutely, and you are a bitch if you say no to the guy who has been buying you dinner for 2 years, and a whore, if you go do it with the guy who buys you a drink, then sorry but women must be able to make personal and economic choices without consequence of punishment of any kind connected to that choice.

I don't think I could abort either. But I will defend to the death anyone who tries to criminalize any choice on this issue that must be available to women without any form of punishment or judgement attached to it.

I don't think that is true that moms always reject a baby that comes out of a rape though I do think it is not uncommon for them to do so. Who can blame them?

I am so sorry you had that experience. I don't have to understand the feeling. Unfortunately, like most women I know the feeling perfectly well. I had hoped things would be different for you generation. We tried, we had take back the night events and the me too movement.... We tried. That feeling is something I never wanted for you to experience. I am so sorry we failed you.

And one thing yet. In 12 week, the fetus actually looks like human and forms fingers, organs, can also moves.

You talk about 24 week, still not being the human. What is this, if not lack of basic knowledge? Ignorance?

https://wearesonar.org/2015/12/01/dolphin-vs-human-bodies-not-as-different-as-they-seem/

Which one is the human? Dolphin fetuses also look like humans. So do chimp fetuses. Should we force other species to carry to term if their fetus looks like ours? Things aren't always what they looked like. Who remembers the time Bill Clinton stated, "I did not have sex with that woman!" Looked to me kinda like he meant it.... But ummm surprise surprise not enough to not do it. So what things look like really isn't of much importance is it? Nor is it an argument for weather women should be able to control their own bodies. But it is a highly emotional and manipulative argument especially when made in the manner you made it without a visual image proving your point.

Nope. Try again. You are NOT putting words in my mouth. You know full well I did NOT say babies aren't alive till 24 weeks. I said they are wholey dependent on their mother's body till 24 weeks. I said, they are not VIABLE. Viable is an adjective with 3 meanings. The 1 I was meaning were capable of living outside the uterus.

I spoke of it not yet being a person while it was still merely a collection of cells. I would argue sometime between week 20 and 24 it becomes a person. At least according to scientific development.

I know how my reproductive system works. You are the one who doesn't seem to grasp the concepts there. I could make a comparison but I am going to side step it since it would come across as quite dirty. Which just goes to show the double standard in discussing the female reproductive system verses the male one.

Here is an idea for ya though. If you want to prevent abortion, get a vasectomy. A perfectly reversible surgery, that will prevent you from being part of the problem of creating unwanted fetuses.

https://wearesonar.org/2015/12/01/dolphin-vs-human-bodies-not-as-different-as-they-seem/

Which one is the human? Dolphin fetuses also look like humans. So do chimp fetuses.

I dont' understand the point of this argument, but if you want an answer, and admitting those are the right embryo (not a fetus at this point, even for politicians), then an expert would most likely tell you the difference in a second. As for my guess with the poor background I have inembryology is that the left one is human.
Now, I made a guess and what? If I'm right, then debate ends here? I bet all my savings that it will not. Moreover, this comparison is for evolutionnary perspectives: seeing the development of a tail in humans for instance, or legs in dolphins; a similar plan in development and I would say: Fortunately! We share a common ancestor, are both mammals, and a similar organization. Why would be the plan of embryo development be so different when we are so related and share most of our genetic materials?

Should we force other species to carry to term if their fetus looks like ours?

Again, I don't understand this point. If it's true that abortion exist in some species, they generally don't go to the clinic or use a hanger to do so... More than that, if you want to make such a call to nature to justify abortion, then you open a Pandora box: Rape, murder, infanticid, drug use, bestiality all exist in the animal kingdom, but the internet sure does not.

For the rest, I already answered earlier too.

I dont' understand the point of this argument, but if you want an answer, and admitting those are the right embryo (not a fetus at this point, even for politicians), then an expert would most likely tell you the difference in a second. As for my guess with the poor background I have inembryology is that the left one is human.
Now, I made a guess and what? If I'm right, then debate ends here? I bet all my savings that it will not. Moreover, this comparison is for evolutionnary perspectives: seeing the development of a tail in humans for instance, or legs in dolphins; a similar plan in development and I would say: Fortunately! We share a common ancestor, are both mammals, and a similar organization. Why would be the plan of embryo development be so different when we are so related and share most of our genetic materials?

Again, I don't understand this point. If it's true that abortion exist in some species, they generally don't go to the clinic or use a hanger to do so... More than that, if you want to make such a call to nature to justify abortion, then you open a Pandora box: Rape, murder, infanticid, drug use, bestiality all exist in the animal kingdom, but the internet sure does not.

For the rest, I already answered earlier too.

If you don't understand the arguments you make then perhaps don't make them in the future? YOU said something about how they are human because they LOOK human. Well, they aren't the only thing that looks like a human at a certain phase of development. Which is which wasn't the point. The point was the average person can only guess. And that things are not always what they appear to be at a glance.

No. The debate doesn't end because it isn't a debate. You are seeking to assert your authority while taking no responsibility for what you seek to assert your authority over. You are not going to pay hospital bills you are seeking to force women to acquire and if they do not you would have them what? Sent to prison for murder? You have not gotten a visectomy. Why is it her body we should be regulating and not yours? We could pass a law forcing men to get those operations until they are married and ready to reproduce at which time they can have the operation undone. Instead you place all responsibility on the woman while seeking to deny her any of the choice. You do this based on nothing except a personal wish to own and control an autonomous person. You present no evidence that supports your views on how this serves women and society. This isn't a debate. Debates are built on substantive view points built on evidence, and something beyond I want to control other people. I am having a debate. You are having a toddler like tantrum about not being able to assert dominance. Please do learn the difference because it is a massive one.

On the issue of development and evolution I would agree with you. Evolution for the win every time. But again not the issue and not the point. You made a claim that something looked a certain way so it should be treated a certain way. I was merely countering that nonsensical childish argument by showing that something else at a certain point looks like something else but we don't treat it like what it looks like as I have not heard you once say anything about protecting the oceans from pollution for the fetal dolphins proving again you don't even buy what you are selling. You are just a toddler throwing a tantrum making an emotional argument, with no real foundation, while taking no responsibility for the issue, as you try to blame other sovereign people for not being more responsible even as they are taking all the responsibility as we speak while you take none. You sound like a toddler throwing a tantrum. This means soooo much to you, you try to seek to push your view onto others but you won't take or invest the literal 2 minutes it takes to do a google search,. You are like a child having a tantrum. You are not a debator.

If you don't understand the arguments you make then perhaps don't make them in the future? YOU said something about how they are human because they LOOK human.

You are confusing me with Oxiu I believe. This make the whole following post a little bit off. However, I'd like to come back on some points:

On this quote, saying that human fetus look human is technically correct, but I would also say factually wrong. Firstly, because a fetus is ~ 9 weeks after conception (7 after fertilization), and is pretty much looking like a baby from this stage onward - it's actually going very fast. Before this point, and as in the link you shared about human vs dolphin, it's an embryo, and it already shows differences between both species early on.

Secondly, because an embryo doesn't look like a human, it is a human and belongs to the species on a genetic perspective.

Now, from my understanding, most people mean embryo when showing such pictures, and person when saying that it's not human. There are also many different things talked about when exchanging... For example, when Oxiu says (I trust you on that, I haven't read all his posts) that a fetus looks like a human, then he most likely talk about a real fetus, whereas your counter argument about dolphins is mentionning an embryo, hence another stage of pregnancy.

I think it's interesting to clarify this point, because it gives a whole new perspective. For instance, abortion are allowed up until 24 weeks in some countries; but looking quickly on internet, most of abortions are performed during the first trimester of pregnancy, hence at the embryo stage. With this in mind, and if look is important, then you would probably have to rethink your argument before 9 weeks; and similarly, if it's important,then maybe there is something to rethink about the allowed delays for abortion...

Debates are built on substantive view points built on evidence

I don't think so. You can base debates on arguments, but an argument is not an evidence. Here, the debate on abortion is mainly ideological and have little to do with any sort of evidence. Calling an embryo a parasite is, as far as I know, not correct (mentionned why in the response to @Miss_Penpal) and only a pejorative grandiloquent term. Same for stating that cells are not alive. Obviously, it also exist on the other side, like stating that abortion is natural and hence shouldn't be stopped because of that.

Did I mistake you with him? I am sorry. I am old and when you hit my age.... Well.... Sometimes you make old age errors. Thank you for letting me know I made that error. It was unintentional and you are right it was directed at him.

Again, correct. I did use an embryo. My point was undeveloped things that Oxiu, believes should have protected status based on crickets, at the expense of women as a result of appearing like a person, is ardently ridiculous. I did use an image of an embryo to make that point.

Correct again! An Embryo, may not look human. Which again goes to my point appearance is not and should not be the standard upon which we base such a serious decision as ending a pregnancy. By his argument an embryo IS a person after all which is why it should be a crime to abort. So resemblance to a person should not be the basis upon which such decisions are made for women by society. The entire anti abortion is predicated on the alleged fact that from the moment of insemination, it is a human baby. So confronting that using an image of an embryo is not confusing the issue in the least. It is confronting the argument head on with evidence that the claim that the appearance of it and the belief that it is a person is not sufficient to base a decision to deny women control of their own bodies. If you don't view an embyo as a person congrats, you seem to be on the right side of that one. I agree.

Oxiu's position, is that abortion is always wrong and should not be legal at any phase. Now, maybe he has the humaness to allow it when the life of the mother is at risk, maybe not. Ask him. But he will tell you even an embryo is a person and has a right to live. At no phase is it NOT a person in his mind. And I was argueing this with him. Or I thought I was.... So to him, it always looks like a person because to him it always IS a person.

I agree. Different countries allow different things. In this country, I recently watched the over turning of Roe V Wade. Much of this country has now lost abortion rights. They are now trying to take the morning after pill. Next stop making birth control only legal for married women who have at least 2 children already. The morning after pill can be found in many western european apothecaries over the counter. Here already you have to go to your doctor and beg for one and he may or may not be too douschy to help you. Up to HIM. Your healthcare decisions are literally up to the government which is headed by an orange escapee from the mental hospital.... Soon to get birth control here you will need a note from your husband to ask the doctor to allow you to have it. That is where this country is headed. This argument isn't just about the life of a fetus. It is also about the life and the value and the equity within society of a woman.

Yes different countries allow different things for women. Why is it up to anyone but the woman and her chosen doctor? It is a personal medical decision. But that said, I am not closed to making it illegal at a certain point unless it is a case of rape or the life of the mother. But it DOES need to be available for a reasonable amount of time for women and the choice must be penalty free.

And here is another point... You are young. So you don't remember the old days when children were the property of their fathers. When *I* was little women still had no right to their own kids in a divorce! The father could demand them and get them and not allow the woman any visitation. You weren't around watching the war over the kids for example that took place when Princess Di and Prince Charles, were fighting for custody. So women must be forced then to bear children that they have no right to even keep historically speaking.

Typically, you are correct. But frequently the images used and what is discussed is something that isn't actually happening in a desperate effort to manipulate the discussion. Typically women abort during or just after point embryo usually before it even particularly looks like a person, when it looks still more like that dolphin. So again, I fail to see how that image is unaccurate or valid in a discussion of this issue.

Debates ARE opposing arguments. Arguments constructed on evidence. Arguments based on a FOUNDATION of some kind beyond just your personal preference. For example, I do not prefer abortion. Yet I am here argueing for choice because I am convinced by the EVIDENCE in it's favor that it is a better policy that allows for all to do what they think is right. I saw you posting some evidence. You are debating the issue. I appreciate that, even when we disagree. Oxiu, was being a toddler. I can respect someone who debates. Toddlers having a tantrum though? yeh sorry no, at least not in a debate about what my rights should be in relation to the body that belongs to me.

Next, let's talk for just a moment about what happens when society takes abortion away from women or denies them abortion. There is a lovely book every woman should read. Actually 2 books. One of them is The Birth House by Ami Mckay, the other is called The Cider House Rules. History also shows us, that when women can't get legal abortions the need for them does not disappear. So abortions move to back alleys, untrained medical professionals and literal coat hangers. These "operations" historically often killed both the baby as well as the mother. So arguing against abortion because life is important is kind of a ludicrous argument as illegal abortions often provide a 2 for 1 death rate that legal abortion does.

These "operations" historically often killed both the baby as well as the mother.

Welp so you all agree that it comes down to killing a baby then. Nice teamwork! 😛️