Are you for smaller government? or are you for parking a government agent in every doctor's office? Pick one please. If you are for the latter
I don't want to hear about cutting the costs of government you don't have a peg leg to even stand on in that discussion.
I have objections to religion dictating laws that people follow as a matter of personal policy. Religious people should keep their fetuses if they want
to follow their religion more than they want to do the best thing for themselves if in fact aborting is the best thing for them, which is their call to make and not mine. But the point still stands. No government should be telling women what to do with their bodies. NO.
I am pro choice.
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Abortion never should be allowed as decision, no matter if it's man or woman who decide.
But why not. I personally believe that abortion isn't murder because murder is when you take someones life. Even if a foetus would be a living creature (wich it isn't, it's a parasite) it doesn't have a life. However the mother does and her life or mental health can be safed by removing this creature in her stomach. This foetus isn't a baby you are making an emotional desision where you see a cute baby violentely being murdred. But it is a foetus and as long as it sits in his mother stomach it is sipmly a parisite living trough her. So she can do with her parisite what she wants. Or is removing a tapeworm murder aswell?
But why not. I personally believe that abortion isn't murder because murder is when you take someones life. Even if a foetus would be a living creature (wich it isn't, it's a parasite) it doesn't have a life. However the mother does and her life or mental health can be safed by removing this creature in her stomach. This foetus isn't a baby you are making an emotional desision where you see a cute baby violentely being murdred. But it is a foetus and as long as it sits in his mother stomach it is sipmly a parisite living trough her. So she can do with her parisite what she wants. Or is removing a tapeworm murder aswell?
So if it's 8 month living in stomach, it is a parasite?
Do You have any science for that awful statement?
It's You, who is emotional here, and somehow manipulated, calling the human "parasite". I encourage You to study some ethics, biology.
The rights of unborn isn't religion thing. It's ethical thing.
Édité par Oxiu .
But why not. I personally believe that abortion isn't murder because murder is when you take someones life. Even if a foetus would be a living creature (wich it isn't, it's a parasite) it doesn't have a life. However the mother does and her life or mental health can be safed by removing this creature in her stomach. This foetus isn't a baby you are making an emotional desision where you see a cute baby violentely being murdred. But it is a foetus and as long as it sits in his mother stomach it is sipmly a parisite living trough her. So she can do with her parisite what she wants. Or is removing a tapeworm murder aswell?
Goon split the proverbial baby.... A fetus, is a collection of cells. A parasite is a living thing. So is a baby. Scientifically and clinically speaking a fetus is a collection of cells. A collection of cells that will eventually grow into a living thing. That collection of cells IS dependent on the body of the mother. The mother is most certainly a living thing. I agree, showing a cute baby being murdered to elicit a response of people saying abortion is wrong is manipulative. Actually yes, removing a tape worm is murder if the result is the death of the tape worm. However as humans, we view non human life as different and view the wormicide therefore differently. Should we? Interesting moral question that one and the question before us is abortion not weather tape worms have Buddha nature.
If it is 8 months in the body, it is viable. It can be surgically removed and put in an incubator and the mother can put it up for adoption and choose to never think about it again. But let's try this another way because turn about is fair play. The mother is over the age of 35 years not months old and walking around on this planet. She is having trouble carrying the pregnancy to term due to her age and health conditions. Do we force her to put her life at risk to carry an 8 months in the womb viable fetus to term? If life is sacred, what about hers? That viable fetus while able to be independent of her is still reliant upon her body. If she dies the chance the fetus dies too is exceedingly high. Or we can try to save both with the understanding when you prematurely remove a fetus, you risk it's life. What do we do then? Do you have a solution?
The science clearly shows a fetus under the age of about 24 weeks is completely reliant on the mother or host's body for it's continued existence. A discussion of an 8 month old baby in the womb and one that is under 24 weeks is NOT the same conversation. I realize like many men you may not understand how the female body works and how babies develop. But your ignorance is not proof of a lack of science on this issue. Just evidence that you care so little about this subject and that it is about punishing women for you over science, that you haven't even bothered to look at the scientific information available. Until a fetus is 24 weeks in the womb, it is absolutely a completely fair comparison on a scientific level to compare it to a parasite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability
https://biologydictionary.net/parasitism/
A collection of cells IS NOT A PERSON! IT IS NOT A HUMAN! NOT YET!
Someone bearing false witness as to what a collection of cells is wants others to read ethics and biology? That is rich. Someone calling a collection of cells a human being wants to talk about manipulation? Really??? Bud, you sure you want to do that? Because it's highly unethical and manipulative. Unless you are also proposing the bloody from a bloody nose should be worn forever because to wipe it away and throw the tissue in the trash is to throw away a baby. I DID study some biology. I am trained in medical herbalism, massage therapy thai and swedish, had to study many hours of biology to earn that certification in my state. I am not a medical doctor, but, not all that far off.
Yes the rights of the unborn. What about the rights of the already born and walking around? hmm? Now you could choose to be up in arms complaining that science needs to create a uterus so MEN can carry the baby in the event the woman doesn't want to. But instead you are here argueing you should get to control and make decisions for a sovereign adult educated human being with a life that she is financially responsible for. Who the hell do you think you are to make decisions like that for other people?
Your position boils down to simply wanting to control other people. You get to control yourself. You don't get to choose for other people. They get to choose what makes sense for their own life and body. Why should YOU get to own your body but somehow mine is public property? Hmmm?
It is entirely about religion and patriarchy. At least where I live it is.
In this country you can't get an abortion in the 8th month. How do you murder something by removing it if it can survive outside of you already? It is only guaranteed death up until the 24th week. After that it can be removed and quite possibly kept alive. So why aren't you out there bleating like a goat at medical science to do better rather than sitting here trying to dictate to sovereign human beings what they should and should not be able to do with their own body. On WHO's authority if not God's should they be forced to carry to term in? Certainly not yours just another socvereign no body with personal opinions on someone else's personal issues that have nothing to do with you personally?
Take a seat.
So if it's 8 month living in stomach, it is a parasite?
Do You have any science for that awful statement?
It's You, who is emotional here, and somehow manipulated, calling the human "parasite". I encourage You to study some ethics, biology.
The rights of unborn isn't religion thing. It's ethical thing.
For me i think it depends if abortion is allowed. So for example if you are a victim and somebody abused you then i think you would be allowed to have abortion. But i also know for example stories that others get pregnant bc they are super careless and they just dont care. And it does not happen one time but with some it happened several times. That is not right i think. But also i think it is not right if they are forced as the mom because she cant take care of herself so how can she be a mom. So i dont know for sure really anymore if abortion should be allowed or not. But there are of course also other cases.
We discussed it also here: https://penpal-gate.net/forum/13-anything-and-everything/9742-true-or-false/20 and you have to scroll to the second half of that page. And i still think that maybe the doctor should decide it. But for a doctor it is also difficult to decide when it should be allowed and not.
We discussed it in our society class and in the beginning it was a nice discussion and people are respectful. But after that people really got agressive or super heavy with the discussion. I did not like that. But we did discuss it.
For me i think it depends if abortion is allowed. So for example if you are a victim and somebody abused you then i think you would be allowed to have abortion. But i also know for example stories that others get pregnant bc they are super careless and they just dont care. And it does not happen one time but with some it happened several times. That is not right i think. But also i think it is not right if they are forced as the mom because she cant take care of herself so how can she be a mom. So i dont know for sure really anymore if abortion should be allowed or not. But there are of course also other cases.
We discussed it also here: https://penpal-gate.net/forum/13-anything-and-everything/9742-true-or-false/20 and you have to scroll to the second half of that page. And i still think that maybe the doctor should decide it. But for a doctor it is also difficult to decide when it should be allowed and not.
We discussed it in our society class and in the beginning it was a nice discussion and people are respectful. But after that people really got agressive or super heavy with the discussion. I did not like that. But we did discuss it.
I agree that some people are not fit to be parents, but there is something called adoption. I don't think abortion should be taken lightly, you can't just kill things and think it's fine just because it's legal.
I understand that babies can only be considered as such after a certain amount of time, like @Wildflower-Farm said, but even cells are alive, and I don't think it's right to decide wether a creature of any sort lives or dies. Unless your life is threatened by it or something like that, it's not your soul/existence, so it's not your choice. Like I said before, there is always adoption.
Goon split the proverbial baby.... A fetus, is a collection of cells. A parasite is a living thing. So is a baby. Scientifically and clinically speaking a fetus is a collection of cells. A collection of cells that will eventually grow into a living thing. That collection of cells IS dependent on the body of the mother. The mother is most certainly a living thing. I agree, showing a cute baby being murdered to elicit a response of people saying abortion is wrong is manipulative. Actually yes, removing a tape worm is murder if the result is the death of the tape worm. However as humans, we view non human life as different and view the wormicide therefore differently. Should we? Interesting moral question that one and the question before us is abortion not weather tape worms have Buddha nature.
If it is 8 months in the body, it is viable. It can be surgically removed and put in an incubator and the mother can put it up for adoption and choose to never think about it again. But let's try this another way because turn about is fair play. The mother is over the age of 35 years not months old and walking around on this planet. She is having trouble carrying the pregnancy to term due to her age and health conditions. Do we force her to put her life at risk to carry an 8 months in the womb viable fetus to term? If life is sacred, what about hers? That viable fetus while able to be independent of her is still reliant upon her body. If she dies the chance the fetus dies too is exceedingly high. Or we can try to save both with the understanding when you prematurely remove a fetus, you risk it's life. What do we do then? Do you have a solution?
The science clearly shows a fetus under the age of about 24 weeks is completely reliant on the mother or host's body for it's continued existence. A discussion of an 8 month old baby in the womb and one that is under 24 weeks is NOT the same conversation. I realize like many men you may not understand how the female body works and how babies develop. But your ignorance is not proof of a lack of science on this issue. Just evidence that you care so little about this subject and that it is about punishing women for you over science, that you haven't even bothered to look at the scientific information available. Until a fetus is 24 weeks in the womb, it is absolutely a completely fair comparison on a scientific level to compare it to a parasite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability
https://biologydictionary.net/parasitism/
A collection of cells IS NOT A PERSON! IT IS NOT A HUMAN! NOT YET!
Someone bearing false witness as to what a collection of cells is wants others to read ethics and biology? That is rich. Someone calling a collection of cells a human being wants to talk about manipulation? Really??? Bud, you sure you want to do that? Because it's highly unethical and manipulative. Unless you are also proposing the bloody from a bloody nose should be worn forever because to wipe it away and throw the tissue in the trash is to throw away a baby. I DID study some biology. I am trained in medical herbalism, massage therapy thai and swedish, had to study many hours of biology to earn that certification in my state. I am not a medical doctor, but, not all that far off.
Yes the rights of the unborn. What about the rights of the already born and walking around? hmm? Now you could choose to be up in arms complaining that science needs to create a uterus so MEN can carry the baby in the event the woman doesn't want to. But instead you are here argueing you should get to control and make decisions for a sovereign adult educated human being with a life that she is financially responsible for. Who the hell do you think you are to make decisions like that for other people?
Your position boils down to simply wanting to control other people. You get to control yourself. You don't get to choose for other people. They get to choose what makes sense for their own life and body. Why should YOU get to own your body but somehow mine is public property? Hmmm?
It is entirely about religion and patriarchy. At least where I live it is.
In this country you can't get an abortion in the 8th month. How do you murder something by removing it if it can survive outside of you already? It is only guaranteed death up until the 24th week. After that it can be removed and quite possibly kept alive. So why aren't you out there bleating like a goat at medical science to do better rather than sitting here trying to dictate to sovereign human beings what they should and should not be able to do with their own body. On WHO's authority if not God's should they be forced to carry to term in? Certainly not yours just another socvereign no body with personal opinions on someone else's personal issues that have nothing to do with you personally?
Take a seat.
You can be arrogant as You want, I really don't care.
See, it's matter of time and technology, when the "fetus" will he able to survive in another kind of incubator. What will You say then?
Another thing - many people are hospitalized, and they can't live without any help or aparature. Who should decide about turn them off?
The fetus has unique DNA, it's future person, a human. You might think about it as nothing yet, but many people thinks different.
You are screaming your own opinions, and yet You forbid my own? The difference is: my opinion somehow tries to defend life, your opinion doesn't care.
Nowhere I said about specific situations, like mother's life in danger. I was relating to calling fetus a "parasite". But I see it triggered You for some reason 🙂
Of couese there are some circumstances and sitations where we just have to choose lesser evil. Is it too young person being pregnant, or someone's life in danger. And this is different than making abortion so common like tooth extraction.
I also didnt use God as authority here.
And the last thing: sure, your body, your choice. You have the choice when You decide to go to the bed with someone. Then You should know the risk, and take the responsibility.
Now, You sit down please and make some reflection on that.
Ps: I also see You don't understand what parasite is. You read the definition of parasite, and You just associate it with pregnancy. It's not correct, anyway.
And stop being so emotional. Less ideology, more epathy please.
Édité par Oxiu .
I agree that some people are not fit to be parents, but there is something called adoption. I don't think abortion should be taken lightly, you can't just kill things and think it's fine just because it's legal.
I understand that babies can only be considered as such after a certain amount of time, like @Wildflower-Farm said, but even cells are alive, and I don't think it's right to decide wether a creature of any sort lives or dies. Unless your life is threatened by it or something like that, it's not your soul/existence, so it's not your choice. Like I said before, there is always adoption.
Thanksss @Miss_Penpal!! I understand what you say but i didnt mean to say that abortion should be allowed easily. I am sorry if i make people misunderstand my opinion. But for example in case of a crime like rape i think it should be allowed. And with persons that are super careless and dont even care about it i am just not sure. And i think the opinion of the doctor is also important.
But i have another question: if you would be victim of a crime i think you should have the right of abortion. But a different question is even IF it is allowed, can you really DO that. I would not be able to do that if it is in my belly i would feel not right for the rest of my life. I am sure of that. And that would make the crime even worse i think. But that is personal and i think in that case every victim should choose for themselves. But what if the parents dont agree with your choice then i really dont know what i would do. I am sorry if nobody understands what i am trying to say but if i would be forced by my parents to do abortion if i would be the victim i think that i would feel victim TWICE and the baby too. But that is how i think about it and it may be very different for someone else.
And i know the topic is super difficult so thank you that you replied in a nice way even if you agree or disagree. 🙏🙏
Thanksss @Miss_Penpal!! I understand what you say but i didnt mean to say that abortion should be allowed easily. I am sorry if i make people misunderstand my opinion. But for example in case of a crime like rape i think it should be allowed. And with persons that are super careless and dont even care about it i am just not sure. And i think the opinion of the doctor is also important.
But i have another question: if you would be victim of a crime i think you should have the right of abortion. But a different question is even IF it is allowed, can you really DO that. I would not be able to do that if it is in my belly i would feel not right for the rest of my life. I am sure of that. And that would make the crime even worse i think. But that is personal and i think in that case every victim should choose for themselves. But what if the parents dont agree with your choice then i really dont know what i would do. I am sorry if nobody understands what i am trying to say but if i would be forced by my parents to do abortion if i would be the victim i think that i would feel victim TWICE and the baby too. But that is how i think about it and it may be very different for someone else.
And i know the topic is super difficult so thank you that you replied in a nice way even if you agree or disagree. 🙏🙏
The rape is thing that, I believe, justify the abortion. It's just... Of course it's hard, but if someone decide to give a birth for this child, it's brave. That's for sure. And I can imagine it must be difficult, when someone... I don't know. Looking at this child, may bring terrible memories for mother.
And these things always should meet with therapy or consultation with psychologist.
I condemn abortion as common thing, common, simple, when someone wants to make it just another form of anticonception.
To some extent I agree. Abortion, is a tragedy. It should involve a lot of soul searching and thought. It is absolutely not an issue to take lightly. I agree too there is another option called adoption. But something I hope you will consider about that. It still involves having a baby. Which means where I am anyway, hospital bills through the roof in price. It means time for your body to heal and time you can't go to work. It means other difficulties and stuff. While I am fine encouraging people to choose this route, I am not fine making it the only legal option for these reasons mentioned. For some the cost of the medical care is hugely devestating as is losing time at work. It isn't just an issue of am I fit to parent. It is also an issue of, can I afford to have it? Can I afford to raise it for the first few months after losing so much time at work? Can I afford it's immediate needs and needs as it grows? They don't stay infants forever.
Cells are not alive. Cells, do not even have a heart beat. So let's not distort the science here. If you choose to view them as alive because they can develop into a living being that is absolutely your perogative. I am NOT pro abortion. I am pro choice. I believe every woman must make her own decisions about this and that men have no place in that decision making unless they have a legal partnership with the woman with the choice. Then they do deserve a voice for consideration but the final decision even then must be hers.
Do you eat eggs? What about meat?
Pregnancies can and do cause life threatening complications for the mother sometimes. They can also be the result of incest and/or rape. Can you imagine being raped by Uncle Bob at 14 and having to spend the rest of your life looking at his face in the face of the resulting child? This is real. It DOES happen. It is even more common than we realize. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/genenic-tests-reveal-incestuous-family-history/story?id=12889895
Like you, I think for many adoption is a great solution. But I am not inclined to tell that 10 year old girl raped by uncle Bob, that she must allow that to fester in her body for nearly a year, if she prefers not to. Nor am I willing to tell a woman who can't afford to miss work and pay hospital bills that will destroy her, that she has to have a baby she doesn't want.
Abortion, must remain a choice each individual woman can choose for her own reasons. I would however, encourage society to make medical care for this issue at least free, and make education and pre school free by covering them in taxes. Because the costs can majorly impact one's decision and if they were not a concern more women might choose adoption over abortion and I don't think for many it even is a choice without those things being covered so they truly do have choice. Society can encourage women to keep it or go with adoption. However, any woman must be free from being punished if she chooses NOT to have it. The less screwed being a single mother leaves women, the more often they may choose to go for it. Which would be great. I am pro choice. Not pro abortion.
I agree that some people are not fit to be parents, but there is something called adoption. I don't think abortion should be taken lightly, you can't just kill things and think it's fine just because it's legal.
I understand that babies can only be considered as such after a certain amount of time, like @Wildflower-Farm said, but even cells are alive, and I don't think it's right to decide wether a creature of any sort lives or dies. Unless your life is threatened by it or something like that, it's not your soul/existence, so it's not your choice. Like I said before, there is always adoption.
If i got pregnant (and it could only happen by rape since i have always been careful and I know the precautions to take for consensual sex )and I couldn’t abort i’d kill myself,i am 1000% sure.
I got close to be raped several times and you all cannot understand the feeling.
did you guys know that if a woman keeps a baby that was the consequence of her rape if MANY cases the mom will always reject the baby and never love him/her?
You can be arrogant as You want, I really don't care.
See, it's matter of time and technology, when the "fetus" will he able to survive in another kind of incubator. What will You say then?
Another thing - many people are hospitalized, and they can't live without any help or aparature. Who should decide about turn them off?
The fetus has unique DNA, it's future person, a human. You might think about it as nothing yet, but many people thinks different.
You are screaming your own opinions, and yet You forbid my own? The difference is: my opinion somehow tries to defend life, your opinion doesn't care.
Nowhere I said about specific situations, like mother's life in danger. I was relating to calling fetus a "parasite". But I see it triggered You for some reason 🙂
Of couese there are some circumstances and sitations where we just have to choose lesser evil. Is it too young person being pregnant, or someone's life in danger. And this is different than making abortion so common like tooth extraction.
I also didnt use God as authority here.
And the last thing: sure, your body, your choice. You have the choice when You decide to go to the bed with someone. Then You should know the risk, and take the responsibility.
Now, You sit down please and make some reflection on that.
Ps: I also see You don't understand what parasite is. You read the definition of parasite, and You just associate it with pregnancy. It's not correct, anyway.
And stop being so emotional. Less ideology, more epathy please.
When a fetus can survive in an incubator, then I will say coolz. Let's take it out if she wants to and put it there and she can walk away and get on with her life and leave it to someone else to raise if she wants to. You seem to be trying to paint me as pro death. I am pro choice. Not pro death. I don't think we should kill as many fetuses as we humanly can. Quite the opposite. I am for any methods society can offer to women to encourage them to keep their fetuses. I am just opposed to criminalizing and making choice on this issue illegal, because every situation is different and at the end of the day it is her body not mine or yours and her situation not mine or yours so we must respect her choice.
The fetus, MIGHT be a potential future person. You assert how I think about it. You are not in my head. For all you know, my personal choices may not reflect my views on this issue. Which in fact they do not and would not. However, those are my choices and it is my body and my right to choose for me. Not for others. And I will fight to the death if I must even though my personal choice may not match up with my views of this issue, for every woman to have the ability to choose without fear of punishment for her choice made based on her own personal circumstances. Circumstances which may not be the same as my own upon which I might make my own decision.
Many people do think different. Usually they are religious fundis I have found and men who seek to control and abuse women. Men who have no idea about how babies develop, how the female body works, or the many ways babies can be put into a woman and with no experience with any of those ways except the ones that are beautiful.
Forbid? No. I just place no value on it as you don't even know and can't be asked to use the google to even make yourself aware of the point at which a fetus becomes viable. So clearly, your stake in this is a lot lower than that of any woman here communicating on this subject as is your knowledge about this issue and the female body, and what it is like to be a woman in this world. For example where I live women make 30% less than men. They get a max of 3 months leave to have a baby UNPAID. The average cost to have a baby where I am sitting is right up around thirty thousand dollars. Remember no pay check for 3 months with that bill. The average cost to raise a child where I am in a middle class middle of the road area is over 300 thousand. Which means where I am sitting you can double it. That is in addition to the medical bills for delivery. The man, pays 15% unless you were married at the time the baby was conceived, in which case he pays somewhere usually between 15% and half. Imagine you are a college student, paying 60 thousands for your degree per year before the costs of housing and everything else, and now you have no pay check for 3 months and a 30 thousand dollar bill and a man responsible for 15% of it. Would you want to have it? How will you eat? These are the practical matters some women must consider. Every situation is different. But who are you to saddle some woman you have ever known with that burden? Are you going to step up and assume those costs for her? Because if not, why do you get a vote given you can't carry a child yourself and you are not offering to assume the costs? A woman's personal choice on this issue falls into a category I call NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
And now you are on a totally different issue altogether. Do you want to discuss assisted suicide in cases where there is no quality of life? Or do you want to talk about abortion? Pick one. But the short answer is, depending how they end up in that state often they have written down what they want done should they be in that state. So I would argue, we honor their wishes. Finally decision made by those who love them in accordance with their stated wish, the family should decide.
And again you assert that you know what I care about and what I don't. What kind of life do you think that baby has with a mother who had to quit uni to pay hospital bills? Works making $7 an hour, what kind of future can she offer it? What kind of educational opportunity can she give it? Do you want to pay for it's quality of life? 300 thousand plus? Are you going to do that? I have not once heard you advocate that society should offer her money or free childcare or anything else to assist her. Because that would come out of you. I am happy to pay more in taxes to support her. But I can not afford all alone to cover the costs for every woman you want to force to produce offspring. So already I am doing more than you are pushing for higher taxes here to cover exactly this situation. How in hell is that not caring? What are you doing? Aside from not even taking the time to figure out when a baby is viable that you care sooooooo much about that you are seeking to force women to have it? hmmm? Well? I mean you love the unborn so much you couldn't even be asked to do a google search on their behalf. Your opinion, seeks to enslave women and force them into dependency. Your position on this issue seeks to punish women and to create male supremacy over women. I see right through you dear.
The parasite bit didn't trigger me. The watching a male make a stupid argument about what is none of his business did.
Correct. You used your own educated self to lazy to do a google search as the authority. Just as bad don't you think? What if this conversation were about something else? Say the economy, and you were justifying your opinion from a position of too lazy to do a google search on the specific facts of the economic issue? Would you view your position and opinion as worthy of being heard then? How is this different? Because for women it isn't different. This is an issue of economics, as much as it is one of morality. Almost 1 in 4 undergraduate women are the victims of rape which means they didn't choose to have sex and make a baby. And that stat doesn't even cover the rest of women for whom I would assume the number to be similar. https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
Actually I didn't do that. Someone else did. I merely made the point that based on the definition it was a fair comparison until week 24.
Really? The one presenting websites from legitimate sources of information is making the emotional argument while the one who can't even bother to look up evidence to base his opinion on is argueing fact???? BUahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Geezus, I just can't stop....
Be more empathetic? Why? Because I am a woman and I am smarter than you and you can't handle my arguments without being unlazy and being lazy is preferable because you care about this issue soooo much as it's impact on you is so extreme?
But why not. I personally believe that abortion isn't murder because murder is when you take someones life. Even if a foetus would be a living creature (wich it isn't, it's a parasite) it doesn't have a life. However the mother does and her life or mental health can be safed by removing this creature in her stomach. This foetus isn't a baby you are making an emotional desision where you see a cute baby violentely being murdred. But it is a foetus and as long as it sits in his mother stomach it is sipmly a parisite living trough her. So she can do with her parisite what she wants. Or is removing a tapeworm murder aswell?
The parasite thing is really a misconception of biology. In most definition, parasitism is:
- Between 2 species. Child is same species.
- Induce loss of reproductive success. - it's the opposite for a mother.
- Is harmful to the host (only some minor adverse effects for a huge gain to the mother).
- Are harmful, but also not necessary to the host - Having children is very much needed on a biological/evolutionnary viewpoint.
- Is on/within host's tissues - Mammals have placenta making child separated from all other tissues of the mother.
- Trigger antibodies in the host system - Mother does the opposite and inhibits antibodies.
- "Come from outside" and invade the host. Pregnancy is an integral part of our repoduction, hence fetus is not an invad
There are some stuff to complete, but I think it's enough to say that the parasite label is not true, and probably aiming to be pejorative.
Other thing in considering the embryo not to be living is a very sensitive argument as it refers to the grain of rice problem, just like so many things in biolody (definition of species for instance) - At what precise moment can you draw a line between embryo and fetus (which is considered human in France) is a very difficult question that mainly ideology has given an answer to.
However, the moment at which the egg is fertilized, then the whole devolpment of the embryo is determined, including the position of your head, spine, ,digestive system...
By the way, if you have a fetus in your stomach, you shouldn't worry about abortion as it won't survive there, but about being jailed, because I'm pretty sure that consuming a human fetus is not very legal 😉
If it is 8 months in the body, it is viable. It can be surgically removed and put in an incubator and the mother can put it up for adoption and choose to never think about it again. But let's try this another way because turn about is fair play. The mother is over the age of 35 years not months old and walking around on this planet. She is having trouble carrying the pregnancy to term due to her age and health conditions. Do we force her to put her life at risk to carry an 8 months in the womb viable fetus to term? If life is sacred, what about hers? That viable fetus while able to be independent of her is still reliant upon her body. If she dies the chance the fetus dies too is exceedingly high. Or we can try to save both with the understanding when you prematurely remove a fetus, you risk it's life. What do we do then? Do you have a solution?
This is a strawman argument. Most of "pro life" people are not against abortion in all its forms, but include exceptions, namely for health concern (mother and children) or rape cases. From what I remember, this is more or less how things were going on Poland for instance.
The science clearly shows a fetus under the age of about 24 weeks is completely reliant on the mother or host's body for it's continued existence.
Human progenies are completely reliant on
their mother for years because the newborn is not fully developed at
birth (essentially because the head is particularly big and a bigger one
wouldn't pass through the pelvic opening). Remove all the comfy
technology, and tadam, no child can survive without being fed and taken
care of by a mother, be it of substitution.
Now, add more technology
as things are going very fast, and you can grow an embryo into a pouch
outside of the mother's womb. (It may sound dystopic, but it has been in
development for years already).
In the first case, is the newborn a "parasitic" clump of cells? In the second case, is the egg already an individual?
Cells are not alive. Cells, do not even have a heart beat. So let's not distort the science here.
I beg to differ. Cells are pretty much very alive and if they were not, they you would have serious problems. Furthermore, there are many species without heart; is a tree not alive? Or jellyfish, sponges, starfish? In the opposite, is an octopus more living than us with its 3 hearts?
Édité par Lianshen .
To some extent I agree. Abortion, is a tragedy. It should involve a lot of soul searching and thought. It is absolutely not an issue to take lightly. I agree too there is another option called adoption. But something I hope you will consider about that. It still involves having a baby. Which means where I am anyway, hospital bills through the roof in price. It means time for your body to heal and time you can't go to work. It means other difficulties and stuff. While I am fine encouraging people to choose this route, I am not fine making it the only legal option for these reasons mentioned. For some the cost of the medical care is hugely devestating as is losing time at work. It isn't just an issue of am I fit to parent. It is also an issue of, can I afford to have it? Can I afford to raise it for the first few months after losing so much time at work? Can I afford it's immediate needs and needs as it grows? They don't stay infants forever.
Cells are not alive. Cells, do not even have a heart beat. So let's not distort the science here. If you choose to view them as alive because they can develop into a living being that is absolutely your perogative. I am NOT pro abortion. I am pro choice. I believe every woman must make her own decisions about this and that men have no place in that decision making unless they have a legal partnership with the woman with the choice. Then they do deserve a voice for consideration but the final decision even then must be hers.
Do you eat eggs? What about meat?
Pregnancies can and do cause life threatening complications for the mother sometimes. They can also be the result of incest and/or rape. Can you imagine being raped by Uncle Bob at 14 and having to spend the rest of your life looking at his face in the face of the resulting child? This is real. It DOES happen. It is even more common than we realize. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/genenic-tests-reveal-incestuous-family-history/story?id=12889895
Like you, I think for many adoption is a great solution. But I am not inclined to tell that 10 year old girl raped by uncle Bob, that she must allow that to fester in her body for nearly a year, if she prefers not to. Nor am I willing to tell a woman who can't afford to miss work and pay hospital bills that will destroy her, that she has to have a baby she doesn't want.
Abortion, must remain a choice each individual woman can choose for her own reasons. I would however, encourage society to make medical care for this issue at least free, and make education and pre school free by covering them in taxes. Because the costs can majorly impact one's decision and if they were not a concern more women might choose adoption over abortion and I don't think for many it even is a choice without those things being covered so they truly do have choice. Society can encourage women to keep it or go with adoption. However, any woman must be free from being punished if she chooses NOT to have it. The less screwed being a single mother leaves women, the more often they may choose to go for it. Which would be great. I am pro choice. Not pro abortion.
I also agree with you to some extent. I understand that the mother's choice is important, I just meant that abortion shouldn't be the first thing a person thinks about when they don't want a child. There are many other ways to get rid of a baby than to kill it. I myself am not pro abortion, but that doesn't mean I'm completely against it and believe it should be illegal. As much as I can choose not to use that resource, other women can choose to use it if they want to. Even if I hate it, it's not my decision to make, and I'm just saying what I think about abortion. I can't speak for others and I don't mean to do so, that would be selfish and hypocritical.
As for cells, it depends on what is your definition of being 'alive'. I think they are alive, in some way, because if something can die, then that means it's alive. Also, cells are the smallest unit of life that can perform all the functions necessary for living, including metabolism, reproduction, and responding to stimuli. Heartbeat is not important, as you can learn from plants, Cnidarians, echinoderms, etc. There are even single-celled organisms, which are considered both alive and a cell.
There are only 3 choices when the birth control pill efficacy fails. Have it and keep it, Abort it, have it put it up for adoption. I don't think anyone starts looking at abortion. I think they start by looking at the range of options. Then they consider each one in turn and in no particular order.
That is the point. Something without a heart beat and or brain function really can't die in any meaningful or scientifically accurate sense as it was never technically alive. It can grow into liveness. And at that point I won't disagree there are some moral and ethical issues that deserve to get the time of day in such a decision. In the sense of humans, a heart beat defines life as does brain function. We are not discussing plants. We are talking about human offspring. But any time you want to discuss botany I am totally there to nerd out.
When a fetus can survive in an incubator, then I will say coolz. Let's take it out if she wants to and put it there and she can walk away and get on with her life and leave it to someone else to raise if she wants to. You seem to be trying to paint me as pro death. I am pro choice. Not pro death. I don't think we should kill as many fetuses as we humanly can. Quite the opposite. I am for any methods society can offer to women to encourage them to keep their fetuses. I am just opposed to criminalizing and making choice on this issue illegal, because every situation is different and at the end of the day it is her body not mine or yours and her situation not mine or yours so we must respect her choice.
The fetus, MIGHT be a potential future person. You assert how I think about it. You are not in my head. For all you know, my personal choices may not reflect my views on this issue. Which in fact they do not and would not. However, those are my choices and it is my body and my right to choose for me. Not for others. And I will fight to the death if I must even though my personal choice may not match up with my views of this issue, for every woman to have the ability to choose without fear of punishment for her choice made based on her own personal circumstances. Circumstances which may not be the same as my own upon which I might make my own decision.
Many people do think different. Usually they are religious fundis I have found and men who seek to control and abuse women. Men who have no idea about how babies develop, how the female body works, or the many ways babies can be put into a woman and with no experience with any of those ways except the ones that are beautiful.
Forbid? No. I just place no value on it as you don't even know and can't be asked to use the google to even make yourself aware of the point at which a fetus becomes viable. So clearly, your stake in this is a lot lower than that of any woman here communicating on this subject as is your knowledge about this issue and the female body, and what it is like to be a woman in this world. For example where I live women make 30% less than men. They get a max of 3 months leave to have a baby UNPAID. The average cost to have a baby where I am sitting is right up around thirty thousand dollars. Remember no pay check for 3 months with that bill. The average cost to raise a child where I am in a middle class middle of the road area is over 300 thousand. Which means where I am sitting you can double it. That is in addition to the medical bills for delivery. The man, pays 15% unless you were married at the time the baby was conceived, in which case he pays somewhere usually between 15% and half. Imagine you are a college student, paying 60 thousands for your degree per year before the costs of housing and everything else, and now you have no pay check for 3 months and a 30 thousand dollar bill and a man responsible for 15% of it. Would you want to have it? How will you eat? These are the practical matters some women must consider. Every situation is different. But who are you to saddle some woman you have ever known with that burden? Are you going to step up and assume those costs for her? Because if not, why do you get a vote given you can't carry a child yourself and you are not offering to assume the costs? A woman's personal choice on this issue falls into a category I call NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
And now you are on a totally different issue altogether. Do you want to discuss assisted suicide in cases where there is no quality of life? Or do you want to talk about abortion? Pick one. But the short answer is, depending how they end up in that state often they have written down what they want done should they be in that state. So I would argue, we honor their wishes. Finally decision made by those who love them in accordance with their stated wish, the family should decide.
And again you assert that you know what I care about and what I don't. What kind of life do you think that baby has with a mother who had to quit uni to pay hospital bills? Works making $7 an hour, what kind of future can she offer it? What kind of educational opportunity can she give it? Do you want to pay for it's quality of life? 300 thousand plus? Are you going to do that? I have not once heard you advocate that society should offer her money or free childcare or anything else to assist her. Because that would come out of you. I am happy to pay more in taxes to support her. But I can not afford all alone to cover the costs for every woman you want to force to produce offspring. So already I am doing more than you are pushing for higher taxes here to cover exactly this situation. How in hell is that not caring? What are you doing? Aside from not even taking the time to figure out when a baby is viable that you care sooooooo much about that you are seeking to force women to have it? hmmm? Well? I mean you love the unborn so much you couldn't even be asked to do a google search on their behalf. Your opinion, seeks to enslave women and force them into dependency. Your position on this issue seeks to punish women and to create male supremacy over women. I see right through you dear.
The parasite bit didn't trigger me. The watching a male make a stupid argument about what is none of his business did.
Correct. You used your own educated self to lazy to do a google search as the authority. Just as bad don't you think? What if this conversation were about something else? Say the economy, and you were justifying your opinion from a position of too lazy to do a google search on the specific facts of the economic issue? Would you view your position and opinion as worthy of being heard then? How is this different? Because for women it isn't different. This is an issue of economics, as much as it is one of morality. Almost 1 in 4 undergraduate women are the victims of rape which means they didn't choose to have sex and make a baby. And that stat doesn't even cover the rest of women for whom I would assume the number to be similar. https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
Actually I didn't do that. Someone else did. I merely made the point that based on the definition it was a fair comparison until week 24.
Really? The one presenting websites from legitimate sources of information is making the emotional argument while the one who can't even bother to look up evidence to base his opinion on is argueing fact???? BUahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Geezus, I just can't stop....
Be more empathetic? Why? Because I am a woman and I am smarter than you and you can't handle my arguments without being unlazy and being lazy is preferable because you care about this issue soooo much as it's impact on you is so extreme?
You write too much to answer it in neat and organized way.
At first, I will ignore all Your speech about "it's my choice", while I told You, of course, I agree. It is your choice, go to bed with a man, or not. But if You do, take the risk and potential consequences. If Yoh don't want child, then give it to the orphanage.
1. Yes, it MIGHT be potential person, so for me it is. You know, I value every potential life, especially the life that comes from humans. I believe fetus is enough to call it a human, and I believe that our civilisation should, currently be far over the idea of how to perceive our specie, more than "oh, it's just few cells, nothing more".
Oh, the old, boring song about how men wants opress woman. I thought it's exploited argument since few years, but okay. You still believe in that leftist thing.
2. Oh, You touch very important subject! If women suffer from such financial policy, then let me ask You:
Would'nt it be better to focus and to demand better social policy and care for mothers, instead of building another abortion clinic, where the unborn are throw away to the trash can?
You talk about how hard it is to be women, but I don't agree that abortion is the solve for any of that problem.
I won't be pointing Your mistakes about biological aspect, since Lianshen did it.
I won't comment what you said about rape statistics, since it's really trashy info and lie. It's in the manner of "Oh, wait, Your boyfriend touched You, and didn't ask about signed permission on paper?". I know such manipulated statistics, since in Poland they also tried to sell it to people, but saying that almost every one of us knows at least few women that was raped... No.
"BUahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Geezus, I just can't stop"
Sorry, You were right, You are not emotional 🙂 You arw rational, and You stick to the main topic: abortion, so You start saying how hard it is to be women. Okay, I will tell You, it is hard to be a man in these times.
And: don't You dare to say that I don't have any right to talk about such things. I have any right, since I can be father, and I want what is best for the women I love and not only.
But Im trying to take this topic not from "what would be the most comfortable, hmmm", but from: what is the most right.
And like I said, there of course are various situations.
If i got pregnant (and it could only happen by rape since i have always been careful and I know the precautions to take for consensual sex )and I couldn’t abort i’d kill myself,i am 1000% sure.
I got close to be raped several times and you all cannot understand the feeling.
did you guys know that if a woman keeps a baby that was the consequence of her rape if MANY cases the mom will always reject the baby and never love him/her?
That isn't true. It CAN happen. It is highly unlikely to happen but it isn't an impossibility. There is no such thing as a birth control option that is 100% effective. But the chances of it failing are absolutely extremely low. There is but 1 method to avoid pregnancy 100% effectively. That is called being a virgin and staying one. Though.... The christians keep insisting that even this method is not 100%, and fails when God gets cheeky, but the last time that happened was 2000 years ago so what are the chances really? So if there is no way to prevent pregnancy absolutely, and you are a bitch if you say no to the guy who has been buying you dinner for 2 years, and a whore, if you go do it with the guy who buys you a drink, then sorry but women must be able to make personal and economic choices without consequence of punishment of any kind connected to that choice.
I don't think I could abort either. But I will defend to the death anyone who tries to criminalize any choice on this issue that must be available to women without any form of punishment or judgement attached to it.
I don't think that is true that moms always reject a baby that comes out of a rape though I do think it is not uncommon for them to do so. Who can blame them?
I am so sorry you had that experience. I don't have to understand the feeling. Unfortunately, like most women I know the feeling perfectly well. I had hoped things would be different for you generation. We tried, we had take back the night events and the me too movement.... We tried. That feeling is something I never wanted for you to experience. I am so sorry we failed you.