🙄 What do you think of... 😊

Something tells me @Miss_Penpal and I are the only ones thinkibg in a normal way 🤔

Both of yours idea of "normal", we do NOT need.

May I ask Pinkie Pie and Nishu to refrain from commenting in response to the last post. These personal attacks divert from the actual discussion.

Mistelzweig: can you attend to my request above for actual support in the manner as stated (i.e. substantively)?

It does not come as a surprise that this topic is debated in a rather ferocious and even vicious manner. That is unfortunate as it will diminish any chance of creating at least some level of mutual understanding.

The comment of Mistelzweig may reignite this rather unproductive style of debate by choosing the label “normal” - hence characterising views of the vast majority in this forum thread as “abnormal”. In the absence of any substantive arguments to support such a bold statement, it will serve no other purpose than adding fuel on a heated debate.

Just out of curiosity in response to that commentator and to solicit actual substantive feedback: did you travel extensively in emerging and third world countries in e.g. Africa, Asia and Latin America? I did and could see first hand what you describe as abnormal. Can you perhaps explain why those who live in such circumstances or have witnessed various forms of rather severe female oppression first hand “got it all wrong”? And can you perhaps provide an explanation on smaller forms of female subjugation in the Western world (e.g. a rather simple matter such as equal pay)? Again I have seen numerous instances where inequality in remuneration policies were not warranted in those specific cases by different skill sets or other special circumstances. Could you perhaps provide your view on this matter in a substantive way? Any actual support for the bold assertions is gratefully received and perused.

Miss Penpal states above that she apparently takes no interest in conditions as described in large parts of the globe. I am seeking to find out whether the assertions of Mistelzweig are based on actual merit or on thin air. I welcome the opportunity to examine why my views are apparently erroneous.

It would also be productive if other commentators in this forum thread can consider to cease personal attacks and refocus on true substance.

No, I have never traveled outside of Europe (though I have visited 18 country's inside Europe) and I don't have any interest yet in visiting Asian, African, Indian etc. country's. No, I actually don't really have an idea about how things are going in those country's, but neither are they my interest. Why does it has to be specifically about those country's?

As to respond on your last question:

I rather base it on truth then on thin air.

May I ask Pinkie Pie and Nishu to refrain from commenting in response to the last post. These personal attacks divert from the actual discussion.

Mistelzweig: can you attend to my request above for actual support in the manner as stated (i.e. substantively)?

Well to both of us, their response was actually a personal attack, Ma'am. Tho, I love you for your efforts to keep personal attacks out of this 🌸✨!!

You should be ashamed of yoyrself: @Miss_Penpal is younger ànd smarter then you!

@Nishu neither do we need yours and the ones of the others who think like you.

Awwwwwww, cute!! what are you trying to prove here? That you don't know how to support people, or are you just jealous that you can't understand this like a 'normal' person?

Thank you for your response Mistelzweig. I welcome your desire to seek a substantive basis for personal views.

One thing that both you and Miss Penpal seem to have in common is your rather limited interest in geographical areas where female oppression is significantly the worst (emerging and third world countries). Any personal views regarding these areas thus lack substance. I have also alluded to varying degrees of female oppression in the Western world, but have not yet been able to trace an actual substantive response dealing with this.

Nishu: the personal attacks have a reciprocal nature. It would be honorable to refrain from acting in kind. Personal attacks are counterproductive as you open a door for a response which ignores actual substantive debate.

Thank you for your response Mistelzweig. I welcome your desire to seek a substantive basis for personal views.

One thing that both you and Miss Penpal seem to have in common is your rather limited interest in geographical areas where female oppression is significantly the worst (emerging and third world countries). Any personal views regarding these areas thus lack substance. I have also alluded to varying degrees of female oppression in the Western world, but have not yet been able to trace an actual substantive response dealing with this.

Nishu: the personal attacks have a reciprocal nature. It would be honorable to refrain from acting in kind. Personal attacks are counterproductive as you open a door for a response which ignores actual substantive debate.

Well, I can't seem to understand, why you can't see how personal their responses were. But yeah, sure, I'll try not to.

That would be the better and more dignified way forward.

You should be ashamed of yoyrself: @Miss_Penpal is younger ànd smarter then you!

@Nishu neither do we need yours and the ones of the others who think like you.

Smarter because she's a men's doormat and haven't seen the wo4ld she lives in? I'm sure you're a male, maybe religious, that just loves neopatriarchy, because it's so comfortable to you. I'm educated so I won't be ashamed

You don't get to say there's "no racism left" just because you're not experiencing it. If you make a joke and other people are offended, that's an offensive joke and you should be apologizing instead of blaming how sensitive people are. Believe me, you don't get called "racist" for no reason.

It's not the person I made the joke with that gets offended, it's the people around who have no business listening to the conversation in the first place.

No, here is one awful person, its you. Have you found information? No. Cuz you're not capable to do it. And I speak 3 languages and my native language Belorusian, and you speak English since you was born. Nothing to proud of. Especially when you cant read, like you for example

My first language is French, actually. And it's not my fault that you chose to misunderstand everything I said as an insult to women instead of as a critic to feminism, which, I'll let you know, isn't the same thing. Of course if you attack me like a rabid dog I'll be aggressive right back, and if you had only taken the time to ask me to elaborate instead of being rude, this discussion would already be over. Now I don't want to continue this pointless arguing because you try to make a point but you've already said all you had to say and now you're just making up things about me since you refuse to admit you were too quick to judge. Personally, I think making up facts about people you don't know is just going to hurt your credibility when people inevitably realize the things you said about that person is completely false.

It's not the person I made the joke with that gets offended, it's the people around who have no business listening to the conversation in the first place.

Ummm.... isn't this a public forum???

Ummm.... isn't this a public forum???

I'm talking about real life, I haven't been called racist online because I'm NOT

Helloooo everybody!! 🙋‍♀️ I have deleted the question abt feminism and woke culture from the list bc i think it is NOTTT nice how it is discussed AT ALL. Im disappointed bc it is now EXACTLYY like how it went in my class too. So i hope that we dont have to ask Etienne to lock the forum if it goes on and on and on still like it. That is not nice and it only destroys the forum and that is not why we made it. 🙁

So instead i have added the questions of @mayuuram and @Douglasgao in the list above and i also want to answer them:

➡️ What do you think of personality disorder and their treatment to people

Im not really sure abt what i must answer. Do you mean for example if you have ADD or that you have autism or also for example other things? I have HSP and it means that you are a highly sensitive person but i dont think it is REALLY a disorder. I dont go to therapists for example or that you must have medicines. But i do speak every month with my mentor from school and she said that it is good. And i think if it IS a disorder if ppl believe that and also the other things i said like ADD than i think still everybody is not better or worse bc you cant do anything abt it. It is just that you think some things are difficult or that you must really do some things differently or your head feels like a soup or you cant act really well sometimes.

➡️ What do you think of fun things you do as a child?

Do you mean like when you were 4 or maybe 5? Bc i liked more to play myself or maybe 1 or 2 others but i did not like in big groups bc it made me not feel really comfortable ORRR if others were super loud. But if it is calmer and you could just play inside i liked that the most. And at school we had similar things like i had home such as a small kitchen or that you have dolls or you had normal toys BUTTT they were different. I preferred the most to play with things from my OWN home. Bc you are more used to it and if you just have smt that looks the same but it is not the same it feels really different. And we were normally not allowed that you could bring things from home IN the classroom. But what i did is that i could bring some things that were important still in my bag. And even if you could not take it in the class then still it was close to you and that can really make you feel calmer.

It's not the person I made the joke with that gets offended, it's the people around who have no business listening to the conversation in the first place.

My first language is French, actually. And it's not my fault that you chose to misunderstand everything I said as an insult to women instead of as a critic to feminism, which, I'll let you know, isn't the same thing. Of course if you attack me like a rabid dog I'll be aggressive right back, and if you had only taken the time to ask me to elaborate instead of being rude, this discussion would already be over. Now I don't want to continue this pointless arguing because you try to make a point but you've already said all you had to say and now you're just making up things about me since you refuse to admit you were too quick to judge. Personally, I think making up facts about people you don't know is just going to hurt your credibility when people inevitably realize the things you said about that person is completely false.

First Google what the Belarusian language is. And how much easier it is for French speakers to learn English than for Belarusians. Second Google the facts I handed you on a silver platter. You're even capable of that. You live in your own world, a heavenly, wonderful world, but open your eyes, that example of racism is simply magnificent. And finally learn to think

Hello @Miss_Penpal @Mistelzweig @PinkiePie @Nishu and whoever you are who read this.

Sorry i read your guys debate, but let's take a historical look at the history of both sexes and why the feminist movement and equality exist. And let's put aside the woke for now, because for Woke itself there are so many agendas and it would take many paragraphs to discuss one by one.

okay, since I come from a major in social studies, and for years my major and I have observed and discussed every gender issue that exists, including the feminist movement itself. OK, let's discuss first, what kind of movement is feminism?

Feminism is an ideology created by women in which they strive to voice, support, demand and fight for their rights. What do they want? As simple as basic human rights in general. like what? rights, opportunities, justice, good treatment, and freedom.

and why do they demand or want that? because women are human beings, they also have the equal opportunity and rights to receive what is their right equally and in full without any interference, manipulation, oppression or exploitation by other parties.

Please read the history of women yourself, there are so many books, research, articles, YouTube videos, etc. that discuss the history of women and feminism. But in short, the existing conclusions show that since the beginning of time, Women are always in a vulnerable, disadvantageous position and are easily made scapegoats or manipulated. so that since ancient times, based on the history, women (of all ages), looked down upon, considered shameful, detrimental, bad, etc., where before human rights existed, femicide often occurred.

One example is the history of witches in the dark era, where people thought there were witches, but in reality, they were vocal women who tried to fight for their right. at that era, talented women are often hated, Even if you trace history, there are always women's inventions that were claimed by their own husbands.

so that from the existing injustices accumulated, the feminist movement was created. The goal is not to dominate or excel any gender, but but only demanding what has always been taken, reduced, oppressed, exploited, manipulated, controlled by misogynists since centuries.

And why is this movement still being voiced? Based on existing research, in reality, equality has not been achieved evenly, there are still many parts of this world that have not been reached by equality. What I mean is, when you feel that there is equality between men and women around you, congratulations.

However, don't belittle what others haven't experienced by saying the movement is no longer relevant or expired because of the environment around you that you consider to be equal. Social movements are collective in nature, and are not just for individuals or small groups, but for the whole community.

and as the name suggests, social is referring to a group of people. and to understand people/human, you need to wear their shoes too (empathy). you can judge or value something only based on your personal opinion. You need to look holistically, through existing multidisciplinary approaches, to understand and assess whether the movement is good or bad, useful or useless.

You can't just look at it from one side or the side you want. Because if you do, I'm sure it will end up being biased, misleading, and even endless debate. because you only want to hear and see through your own glasses.

that's all i can give. please, before start to talk about serious topic, or you want to start debate, It would be better for you to use credible reference sources such as books, scientific research/journals, YouTube videos from experts, scientific articles and sources that are not personal opinions.

Thankyou and Best Regards,

Mayuura

First Google what the Belarusian language is. And how much easier it is for French speakers to learn English than for Belarusians. Second Google the facts I handed you on a silver platter. You're even capable of that. You live in your own world, a heavenly, wonderful world, but open your eyes, that example of racism is simply magnificent. And finally learn to think

As I said, I won't be continuing this pointless arguing since you don't actually want me to explain myself OR to explain to me what your point of view is but instead only want to use me as a target for your malice. Take example on @mayuuram next time and actually explain things instead of only throwing insults around and calling everyone stupid. I also apologize to you because I've clearly offended you and that was not my intention, at least not in the post I made to answer the questions. I admit I wasn't very gentle in my answers afterwards and although I tried to stay polite I didn't really manage to do so very well, so I apologize for that as well.

Thank you @mayuuram for your post, it was nice to both sides and very constructive, unlike @PinkiePie 's posts and, I've got to admit, mine too. I should have been clearer with what I meant and I apologize to everyone on this forum for making such a scene. I could give plenty of excuses for my behaviour but it doesn't matter because I'm still partly at fault here and I doubt anyone want to hear it.

thankyou for your respond, @Miss_Penpal i understand sometimes, when we want to defend an argument, we unconsciously become stubborn and focus on the attacked ego rather than the topic or issue at hand. Because When we dare to argue, we also risk our self-respect.

That's why, when we focus more on defending our egos than on our arguments, we always end up attacking our opponents personally by insulting or belittling them. And this kind of thing doesn't just happen to teenagers and young children, but I've found it in people of all ages. They focus more on their own egos than on truly reflecting on and evaluating each other's arguments.

and in almost every forums (that endup fighting), I've always told to whoever ends up arguing that serious topics will be more educational and enriching if we each express our thoughts more diplomatically, and that arguments are best using and provide by credible sources that anyone can verify. Because serious topics will be held accountable for their theories.

It's a shame that a topic that could enrich us is, instead turned into a battleground of ego. so in the end it's just about winning. And, no matter how (we think) right we are, bitter truth, the final decision to believe or not something ultimately belongs to us. Other can only educate, throwing arguments, but whether or not we accept (the education/information), it's depends on the individual's choice to believe or not to what they read.

Because belief is ultimately voluntary, persuasion must respect autonomy rather than attempt coercion. And humans have autonomy (freedom from external control or influence; independence.) since birth that needs to be respected. and even when we see someone are wrong, then we correct them (and they endup defensive), it's not because they are dumb or racist or anything, it's because some individuals may not be ready to reconsider their current position, to reflect immediately. (In ethics, (see John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty, 1859), freedom of belief is protected unless harm is involved.))

Opening someone’s mind requires more than presenting information; in assertive yet diplomacy way & tone, and it also requires their willingness to engage with it. and when people have chosen to be closed minded, so only they themselves can open their minds, not us. That's why in the end, we gather with people who have the same vision, mission, perspective, views and life preferences as us.

it's okay, sometimes we may make mistake, but don't let the friendship get worse because of our mistakes 🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻

I'll try to stay laconic because I guess I would trigger some negative responses on the debate that is still going on.

1️⃣ Marriage?

I believe marriage is the ultimate love move you can make as it represents eternal union. For me, it's symbolizing your goal with your half, so it's important, and it also means less taxes, lol

2️⃣ Online dating apps?

A nice way to make money on men's lust, women's hope and general despair. However, it seems to be one of the only way in a world where isolation and many struggles in real life seem to occur...

3️⃣ Higher prices for unhealthy food?

I admit I found it funny. We have sucha tax in France, but the effect are mixed I think. First because tax on unhealthy food, like on sugar, is degressive, so it hits poor people more. Problem; crappy food is also often cheaper.

6️⃣ 😶 I have deleted the topic that was here bc of arguments. 🙁

I still want to respond a little to it, because i feel the bait too.

I have strong lean toward biology and complementarity with core differences between males and females, strenghts and weaknesses for both, so I feel like some form of feminism (notably in the West) are too much and rather unproductive, pushing toward more conflicts between genders than anything else. We also (particularly France) have a huge problem with some social sciences that are still living 50 years in the past, with many of those scientists still denying any role of biology in human behaviour that are still taught in universities.

This lead to political moves that sometimes end up hurting everyone and getting further away from fairness for everyone, in the name of a sanctified "sameness". It also seems that feminism - still in the West - focuses more on an equality of results than of an equality of chances, a kind of equity. When medias, politicians or ideologists especially talk about it, but social scientists as well, we rarely are in the case "other things being equal" which inevitably affects tthe interpretation of the data and the conclusions.

It's more a take against social sciences and its effects in the end, more than on feminism or wokism itself.

-- This is only my fuzzy and badly articulated opinion too -- I don't want to debate about that because I don't aim to change/fight about it at the moment. It also concerns mainly Occident. I know that feminism in some places of the world are much less on nature vs culture artificial dichotomy and are more practical than that, but it's not my point here and I'm not familiar enough with them.

7️⃣ Religions

Probably needed? Have you noticed how we replace religions with other beliefs when we lose it? Sometimes, it get weirder, less structured and not always nicer

8️⃣ Prices for vet products

Vet product? veterinary? I don't have to pay them, thanks... God :v

9️⃣ Natural furs

As someone very close to conservation biology, I guess I will still go for debate but... it depends on the source of the fur. If you get fur from culling a species of a sustainable population, whether it is for regulating the said population, or getting meat... then I don't necessarily see much problem because it's sustainable.
If you have a fur farm however, it feels a little bit sad for the individuals. I have seen arctic foxes from fur farm and they didn't look too nice; ethically, I think it was much more questionable than a wild animal. Of course, if you get your fur from endangered animal and add another pressure just to get a coat, then again, I feel like there is a problem.

Now the question is about what is sustainability and can we really be included in it always, but that's really a hard and complicated ethical debate.

🔟 AI (generative AND simple)

Thanks to AI, I can skip 52455 pictures of grass moving because of the wind and get a name of the species on each detection almost correctly. Isn't that very useful? Sometimes, you don't even see the animal on the picture and you have to change the contrast, but the AI detects it!

For chatbots, it's really difficult. It looks very detrimental on an environmental point, very energy consuming and it seems that people turn their brain off with it. It also raise concerns on privacy (I tried some and it's very easy to just give your infos...)
But it's also a powerful tool if you use it to learn instead of giving you answers directly; and it can be very useful on some situations too.

I'll try to stay laconic because I guess I would trigger some negative responses on the debate that is still going on.

I believe marriage is the ultimate love move you can make as it represents eternal union. For me, it's symbolizing your goal with your half, so it's important, and it also means less taxes, lol

A nice way to make money on men's lust, women's hope and general despair. However, it seems to be one of the only way in a world where isolation and many struggles in real life seem to occur...

I admit I found it funny. We have sucha tax in France, but the effect are mixed I think. First because tax on unhealthy food, like on sugar, is degressive, so it hits poor people more. Problem; crappy food is also often cheaper.

I still want to respond a little to it, because i feel the bait too.

I have strong lean toward biology and complementarity with core differences between males and females, strenghts and weaknesses for both, so I feel like some form of feminism (notably in the West) are too much and rather unproductive, pushing toward more conflicts between genders than anything else. We also (particularly France) have a huge problem with some social sciences that are still living 50 years in the past, with many of those scientists still denying any role of biology in human behaviour that are still taught in universities.

This lead to political moves that sometimes end up hurting everyone and getting further away from fairness for everyone, in the name of a sanctified "sameness". It also seems that feminism - still in the West - focuses more on an equality of results than of an equality of chances, a kind of equity. When medias, politicians or ideologists especially talk about it, but social scientists as well, we rarely are in the case "other things being equal" which inevitably affects tthe interpretation of the data and the conclusions.

It's more a take against social sciences and its effects in the end, more than on feminism or wokism itself.

-- This is only my fuzzy and badly articulated opinion too -- I don't want to debate about that because I don't aim to change/fight about it at the moment. It also concerns mainly Occident. I know that feminism in some places of the world are much less on nature vs culture artificial dichotomy and are more practical than that, but it's not my point here and I'm not familiar enough with them.

Probably needed? Have you noticed how we replace religions with other beliefs when we lose it? Sometimes, it get weirder, less structured and not always nicer

Vet product? veterinary? I don't have to pay them, thanks... God :v

As someone very close to conservation biology, I guess I will still go for debate but... it depends on the source of the fur. If you get fur from culling a species of a sustainable population, whether it is for regulating the said population, or getting meat... then I don't necessarily see much problem because it's sustainable.
If you have a fur farm however, it feels a little bit sad for the individuals. I have seen arctic foxes from fur farm and they didn't look too nice; ethically, I think it was much more questionable than a wild animal. Of course, if you get your fur from endangered animal and add another pressure just to get a coat, then again, I feel like there is a problem.

Now the question is about what is sustainability and can we really be included in it always, but that's really a hard and complicated ethical debate.

Thanks to AI, I can skip 52455 pictures of grass moving because of the wind and get a name of the species on each detection almost correctly. Isn't that very useful? Sometimes, you don't even see the animal on the picture and you have to change the contrast, but the AI detects it!

For chatbots, it's really difficult. It looks very detrimental on an environmental point, very energy consuming and it seems that people turn their brain off with it. It also raise concerns on privacy (I tried some and it's very easy to just give your infos...)
But it's also a powerful tool if you use it to learn instead of giving you answers directly; and it can be very useful on some situations too.

Merci beaucoup for your answer @Lianshen!!! I wanted to reply abt the religion answer. I think that religion is not needed bc ppl just believe in a religion and not that they need it. But it can also make ppl better persons if they live in a way that is better if the religion says that (i mean with norms and morals). And it can also help them if they are uncertain abt things so they feel more safe and supported.

I dont mean of course if ppl use a religion wrongly and use it for violence or racism. But i think almost all religions also tell how you must be in certain ways and act as a good person. So if ppl believe in the religion or like what it is abt than i think it is positive. But im curious if you agree bc im not sure what you meant. Thank you very much if u want to tell what u think!! 😊😊🙏🙏