justified acquittal or not

Here an opinion was asked and we responded. It is important to keep the light on the problem of harassment and violence against children

An opinion can be granted but that does not alter the fact that it is premature one to the extent that it concerns this specific case (as explained above) . I am a father of two daughters and am very well aware of a need to protect children against violence. But are you fully cognizant of all facts based on a translation of a newspaper headline? Are you aware of what was examined by medical experts in this case (except for a brief summary of the media)? Belgian criminal law did not originate from a time where people were chasing mammoths. We render a private opinion on the basis of thin air (at best). That is of course allowed. But similarly it is permitted to characterize such private utterings as premature. And I have deliberately chosen a polite label.

It seems that @Lianshen above has considered the nuanced approach. That is a better way forward.

actually, sorry but i want to unfollow this topic.

i dont write anymore in it anyway.

actually, sorry but i want to unfollow this topic.

i dont write anymore in it anyway.

Me too

Me too

🙂😉

i don't know if i can say this, but honestly (at least in my country), judges, doctors, the government can no longer be trusted, especially since covid, many of them end up just doing business with their people and determine the punishment unfairly, you could say it's blunt at the top, sharp at the bottom. they are only obedient & soft to the top or the rich.

and from the eyes of a netizen, I find it strange. because the decision feels odd, even if he has an illness, it still doesn't justify that the actions of grandfather to the granddaughter were right or can be forgiven easily. and who knows how much trauma the victim experienced. because everyone I know whom has a history of trauma due to assault, rape, etc. they end up not being able to love themselves, carry those wounds forever and endup always lose themselves because of always remember that heartbreaking moment. That's why I won't be surprised if one day the granddaughter will commit su*cide if justice is not rightly upheld.

but again this is just my view as a netizen

i don't know if i can say this, but honestly (at least in my country), judges, doctors, the government can no longer be trusted, especially since covid, many of them end up just doing business with their people and determine the punishment unfairly, you could say it's blunt at the top, sharp at the bottom. they are only obedient & soft to the top or the rich.

and from the eyes of a netizen, I find it strange. because the decision feels odd, even if he has an illness, it still doesn't justify that the actions of grandfather to the granddaughter were right or can be forgiven easily. and who knows how much trauma the victim experienced. because everyone I know whom has a history of trauma due to assault, rape, etc. they end up not being able to love themselves, carry those wounds forever and endup always lose themselves because of always remember that heartbreaking moment. That's why I won't be surprised if one day the granddaughter will commit su*cide if justice is not rightly upheld.

but again this is just my view as a netizen

Even to the extent that your views are warranted in respect of Indonesia (I cant judge this in any sensible way) it seems better not to import this mantra to other countries (in this case to a country situated on the other site of the world). Is it a universal truth? Is it relevant in this specific case? How do we know? The prudent way seems to admit: we do not know. No matter how unsatisfactory and inconvenient that admission may be in a case as discussed here.

Even to the extent that your views are warranted in respect of Indonesia (I cant judge this in any sensible way) it seems better not to import this mantra to other countries (in this case to a country situated on the other site of the world). Is it a universal truth? Is it relevant in this specific case? How do we know? The prudent way seems to admit: we do not know. No matter how unsatisfactory and inconvenient that admission may be in a case as discussed here.

only auntie who can answer as belgium itself about the situation there and i also wonder why she made this forum? Logically, if someone creates a forum, there is something/matter they want to discuss/convey. If not, normally people won't create a forum because they don't know what to do.

and, From the reviews of my friends who are from various countries, a lot of them indeed skeptical & feel doubt 'to the upper party' (you can also visit Threads, instagram, especially quora about many things, that not only sugar-coated theories, but people review in it), so yeah ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/¯

I admire the "I don't know" part. That is a proper admission as appears from the actual substance of your reaction. This is a very serious topic which demands proper diligence. The reliance on translated newspaper headlines and Instagram posts in matters as these may be an acceptable method in the current age, but I suggest a far more critical and robust manner in generating opinions.

Of course I realize that in modern times people have opinions about everything. This forum thread is a prime example. It also means that diligence and a much more careful approach are subject to erosion (as also demonstrated in this forum thread). A nuanced and critical line of reasoning may be inconvenient, but should not become a relic of the past.

This is not an attack but a friendly advice: be different than the online herd with pitchforks. If you wish to lead by reason: take a step back and reconsider your approach.

I admire the "I don't know" part. That is a proper admission as appears from the actual substance of your reaction. This is a very serious topic which demands proper diligence. The reliance on translated newspaper headlines and Instagram posts in matters as these may be an acceptable method in the current age, but I suggest a far more critical and robust manner in generating opinions.

Of course I realize that in modern times people have opinions about everything. This forum thread is a prime example. It also means that diligence and a much more careful approach are subject to erosion (as also demonstrated in this forum thread). A nuanced and critical line of reasoning may be inconvenient, but should not become a relic of the past.

This is not an attack but a friendly advice: be different than the online herd with pitchforks. If you wish to lead by reason: take a step back and reconsider your approach.

yep and that's why in previous replied i said "from the eyes of a netizen" in every forum I never act as an 'expert'. i know my place and myself better than anyone that's why i always show myself in forum, cause i learn a lot from people here and vice versa.

like i learn a lot from teenager here about many things, especially @Yue_ she may be way lot younger than me, but her calmness and ability in dealing to disagreement is something that i admire, and i learn, but does it make me less? nope. and i hang with various, younger, older, same age and we share many things. that's why i'm here. and if i know something and can be consume by public, why do i keep it to myself? i learned that sharing is caring.

I set myself as a netizen who observes how people think about this and that, the review, the thought (that's why it called as forum anyway, everyone in here can say anything) especially the issue of why people are starting to be skeptical of the 'upper class' (government, police, law, doctor) and There are so many examples in PPG forum here and on Quora that so many of them creating forum to convey & discussing their skepticism. (you can visit Quora, and you would be blow up by many things)

of course i wouldn't dare to say things that i know nothing. and imo, that is a statement that I think the information can still be consumed by the public, the rest, I rather not to say, cause yeahhh there is something that cannot be consume by public 😬😬😬

Thank you for your reaction. Good to know on what basis people speak about serious things. I will adjust my expectations accordingly.

it's okayyy, at least people i know who often appear in this forum never meant to play as expert. but as a friend who willing to share information, to discuss, to share awareness, to create forum out of care. and in the end we are the one who responsible to ourselves in filters things and not others.

I did not expect people to be an expert on Belgian criminal proceedings in this forum thread (never suggested this if you read more carefully), but I did expect a much more diligent and careful approach before opinions are shared on such serious matters. But I will make way if this thread provides a sense of community feel (at the expense of people involved in these proceedings - victim(s), alleged perpetrator(s), judges and medical experts included - and any true search of reason). Covid? Sure. Mistrust of judges in Indonesia and its relevance in this specific Belgian case? Yes of course. Not having read a single word of the original judgment? Who cares we have Instagram and headlines. Feel free to fire at will (unfiltered and uninhibited). Sharing is caring (no matter if it lacks any substance regarding this matter). It is a much better (and convenient) mantra than "sharing carries a responsibility".

Apologies for this voice of disagreement which is deliberately not coated in sugar. But a bit more respect for the people who are actually involved in this horrific case (again: all of them if you have not a clue what the original judgment actually embodies) is warranted. Don't consider diligence as a disposable item.

That’s a fair perspective. These kinds of discussions can get messy sometimes, but I think most people here are just trying to understand and engage with the topic. I do believe accuracy and respect should be priorities, though. and for the fact, anything in the media can actually be manipulated, fully stories only the victims, the perpetrator who exactly know what happen. And personally in every issue that happening, i ask people who are in 'reality' or those who are close or in that field. That's actually why, I rarely appear in forums where the discussion is very serious. Cause who i am to judge? i'm nobody, and would always be nobody. and my answer? not important tho

well, at least every worry that often occurs has a fundamental reason which is none other than looking at the reality that happened in the past, not something that once happened and immediately became skeptical. no way. and just because I'm Indonesian doesn't mean my answer is only within the scope of Indonesia, I also pay attention to other parties outside my country. I don't know it sounds like you're just cornering me while here I'm not the only one who said no.

That is a response which demands respect and requires courage. Kudos for that! This is not intended as a sarcastic comment and does not come with any hidden message.

Of course your knowledge is not confined to Indonesia. This was not suggested in my message (not at all)! But I do believe that any mistrust of the judiciary in Indonesia (warranted or not; which I can't judge) has nothing to do with the Belgian court in this specific case (or even the Belgian judiciary in general). Instagram posts do not alter this fact.

The nuances which i tried to voice in my messages are not only directed to you. However, my compliments for the audacity and courage as displayed in your last response are reserved for you. I hope that the discussion has provided "food for thought". Diligence and a careful approach are indispensable ingredients for any voice of reason.

I am rarely triggered by discussions on this forum (most even remain unseen as I am online on a very irregular and family/work permitting basis). But I have been in the proximity of others who have been involved in such matters as discussed above. And I am very well aware of the impact that premature social condemnation (including private opinions or suggestions) can trigger. This does not only apply to lawyers involved in such horrific matters, but most certainly also to victims and alleged perpetrators who both have an inalienable right of access to due process in a court of law.

I have mixed feelings about this thread because I certainly agree with @Savi2024 that we shouldn't judge without any context or expertise on the issue. That said, the justice system also serves as a safety valve for the public, and it's vital that people feel it reflects their values (aren't there as many justice systems as there are peoples?).

I haven't heard about this case nor have I looked it up, but I feel like the justice system (at least in France) is so flawed that outrage over a random verdict feels almost instinctive. After the system lets you down too many times, trust erodes, and you stop wanting to give it the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that’s just my perspective.

I have mixed feelings about this thread because I certainly agree with @Savi2024 that we shouldn't judge without any context or expertise on the issue. That said, the justice system also serves as a safety valve for the public, and it's vital that people feel it reflects their values (aren't there as many justice systems as there are peoples?).

I haven't heard about this case nor have I looked it up, but I feel like the justice system (at least in France) is so flawed that outrage over a random verdict feels almost instinctive. After the system lets you down too many times, trust erodes, and you stop wanting to give it the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that’s just my perspective.

I lack sufficient knowledge of the French judiciary and do not feel qualified to comment on that. I am much more familiar with the Dutch and English courts and the picture as portrayed in your comment does not apply in a similar fashion (understatement) to the Netherlands and the UK. From experts on the ground I understand that the Belgian court system should also be awarded much more credit than the apparent distrust (warranted or not) in France.

In any case, the French experience does not say anything about the specific case which is the subject of this forum thread. I know lawyers in the field of criminal law (judges, prosecutors and attorneys) and I am very much aware of the impact of easy and quick fire bursts of public condemnation in a premature fashion. Unfortunately, I have also been in the direct vicinity of a wrongly accused person of crimes of a similar nature (a former client of someone close to me). His life was destroyed even upon a full acquittal and conclusive evidence of his innocence. Preceding public condemnation cannot be easily erased and people still look at him with caution. I can only underestimate his continuing ordeal. I have encountered multiple victims (even a single case within my inner circles) who have endured public speculation and unfounded commentary concerning crimes as discussed here. No need to elaborate on the outraging effects that this may cause.

These matters are utmost sensitive and I strongly believe that we should treat such individual cases accordingly. I am glad to read that your mixed feelings do not relate to that notion. The discussion whether individual (!) court systems are functioning or not in any other country than Belgium is a separate matter and clouds a proper assessment of this specific case. I feel very strongly about this - much more than other types of litigation - considering the sensitivity of this specific matter.

Off topic (well, kind of related actually) but maybe people in this thread would like to watch Juror #2. It's very well made, and it shows how people easily get blinded by emotion when it comes to judging a case.

@Savi2024 I don't want to trash talk the system with vague blanket statements, so allow me to share 4 recent examples highlighting the current situation in France. These are off the top of my head, but I still took the time to double check details so as not to spread misinformation:

- 2 weeks ago somebody deliberately ran over a cop (who thankfully only got injured). The judge deemed a 150 euro fine an appropriate punishment.

- Last week, a medical doctor was brutally beaten and disfigured after a disagreement. Following an immediate trial, the attacker's sentence was two weeks of community service.

- A member of parliament was caught red-handed buying hard drugs from undocumented minors in the subway. He spent a total of 25,000 euros of his parliamentary funds on these purchases. Despite this, he’s refused to resign and even had the audacity to claim he’s a victim of drugs, blaming society for not solving the issue.

- last week an undocumented Algerian man stabbed someone to death on the street and injured 6 others. The Ministry of the Interior revealed they had previously attempted to deport him back to Algeria 10 times, but the country refused to cooperate each time.

While that last one is technically unrelated to the justice system per se, it reflects a broader failure of the State to fulfill its most basic mission: ensure the safety of its citizens. This has been dragging on for far too long, and there's some seriously disturbing stuff happening somewhere in there.

I don't know much about the English justice system, but the silence surrounding the grooming gangs as well as the imprisonment of people sharing memes online is unsettling to say the least, and certainly does not inspire confidence at first glance.