Russia IS bad or do you all seriously believe the shit is told by Putin (and newer Trump) . Hate on EU?
I think most of us agree here that Russia is "bad", but what is happening has nothing to do with Putin (who has essentially kept silent for years). We've been discussing relations between the US, Ukraine, and the EU, each attempting to favor their own interests (except the EU, as usual).
With that logic we have to be thankful that England had a Churchill in WWII, because people would have said "Sign a contract and give up, Look at the facts and take your destiny"
Who's "we"? You're German, I'm French. Who are "people"? "Said" to whom?
I assume this means you consider England's involvement in WW2 in favor of the Allies to be a good thing. But how does it contradict what I said? It was England's interest that the Allies win, especially as they're part of the same continent. Even then, the American involvement happened late enough that Europe was almost completely destroyed by the time they finally deemed appropriate to send troops. Am I misinterpreting your message?
I see 3 things from that story at this point:
- Ukraine's leader is stuck in a nightmare because of his hatred for Russia/Putin and his delusional belief that he will be defended by foreign organizations (namely NATO and/or EU), but, hey, maybe there is a last dollarito to make out of the mess for the richer ones here.
- US gets enough of messing up with others everywhere and think it's time to stop before losing money. They made EU more asserved to them, weakened a little Russia, polarized the world a bit more and completely transformed Ukraine into a puppet and extremely corrupted state, finalizing the process started at least with Maidan.
Now that they got what they wanted, they come to say that it is enough and ask for repayment, claiming to be the country that helped the most Ukraine despite EU helping almost 3 times more if we count the future allocations. To get their interests, everything is good too; a good and irrelevant boastful claim like rare earths followed by better negotiation asking for everything valuable in Ukraine; gaz, minerals, farms... The scene is so ridiculous that it looks like the already ruined Ukraine lost a game of monopoly, stopping by the most expensive street with 1 hotel built on it.
- EU is the naive dummy helping Ukraine because "boohoo Russia is bad; US told us so" losing a cheap source of energy with the magical incident of North Stream I & II. Went full bozo against Russia; forgetting totally about its interests and ironically still getting Russian gaz, but 10 times the former price. Smart move for sure, but it makes us look morally superior because Ukraine is a poor and innocent victim, so it deserves to destroy our economies and our industries, so that we can pay Ukrainians by sacrifcing our social rights.
The war might stop though, with a bitter defeat of the incredible avengers; and since uncle sam is asking for its money back (like it didnt make enough and didn't destroyed EU and Ukraine) EU clowns will try to do the same, except that Ukraine wiill have nothing to give anymore. Results for EU? Russia has been pushed in China's arms and is more antagonized than ever. We lost our industry and our cheap energy at the benefits of US; we get poorer, live more and more in what will soon become a tyranny, but it's ok, because we are saving the world. The eurocentrism and the arrogance we have both as european people and our leaders is hilariously bringing us to our fall.
I remember that when all this started, I mentionned that the one who had interests in this war was mainly the US, and that every country works for its self interests. When I said so and argued that US and EU had their responsibilities and provoked that war with their behaviour; I was called a pro-Putin or even a Russian. Hopefully people will realize that US is not our friend and that EU never worked for Europeans, but for lobbies and US interests.
It's a shame though that we have to get our face in the dung to realize that collectively, if we ever realize something. Normally, past experience and witnessing events should be enough to teach us.
Sorry, but at least half of that what you wrote are at least "alternative facts" and wording of AfD and Front National.
That Putins hate against Western Europe and try to destroy its values by starting a war isnt an option?
Sorry, but at least half of that what you wrote are at least "alternative facts" and wording of AfD and Front National.
That Putins hate against Western Europe and try to destroy its values by starting a war isnt an option?
Please, enlighten me then and tell me what are the alternative facts. Ukraine being used by greater powers? US sacrificing UE to keep its hegemony a little longer and destroying Ukraine to get money and resources? UE to act against Europeans' interests?
Putin has tried to get closer to EU multiple times. There is no love or hate involved at this scale, but common or diverging interests. EU leaders and Zelensky completely fail to grab that concept. Furthermore, there might be EU values at which it is great to self destruct without the help of the great monster Putin, but Western European values? Really? When our both countries are fist fighting and when Germany tries to prevent France to be its equal as much as possible?
As for your AfD/FN line, I suggest you stop the guilt by association. That sort of trick has stopped working years ago, and instead push people to those parties.
Putin has tried to get closer to EU multiple times.
I agree with most of your message, except for the claim that Putin has tried to get closer to the EU:
- he views modern Western culture as generally decadent, largely due to wokeness
- he has openly stated that he considers significant portions of Ukraine to be historically Russian territory (which is somewhat true if you look at the last 1000 years or so, though if every nation applied that same logic it would lead to constant warfare)
I think he's more interested in building bridges with Asia than Europe.
Why is the future sooo complicated!?
Because the past is equally if not more complicated 😛
I agree with most of your message, except for the claim that Putin has tried to get closer to the EU:
- he views modern Western culture as generally decadent, largely due to wokeness
- he has openly stated that he considers significant portions of Ukraine to be historically Russian territory (which is somewhat true if you look at the last 1000 years or so, though if every nation applied that same logic it would lead to constant warfare)
I think he's more interested in building bridges with Asia than Europe.
Even in countries affiliated to the West, there are nations that thinks Western cultures are decadent too though. Putin did wish to get closer to the West though for multiple reasons:
- It's historically and culturally closer to EU.
- UE used to be a main partner for many goods (and for EU, it was also the guarantee to get a its share of "cheap" energies).
- Putin/Russia has always been warry of China, its economical and cultural growth as well as growing influence in East Russia.
I do not believe that he is more interested in building bridges with Asia, but that the context and evolution of relationships between our two blocs pushed him away. EU has refused the hand of Putin more than once acted in a way that is either a provoking or insulting. For instance, while you are right to point out that Putin always jave seen East Ukraine as a part of its territory or at least area of influence, with Belarus, he wished for some of these countries to remain a buffer zone.
From my perspective and what I have seen, things radically changed whe, UE and NATO started to expand East and Crimea annexion, support to separatism... Truly became a big thing with Maidan, and I won't teach you how Maidan is a story of corruption and foreign involvement (5 billions from the US for "democracy and freedom", lol). Starting from that point, it really just escalated with both West and Putin starting to be paranoid and more imperialist; and Ukraine being stuck inbetween with some Hunter Biden doing weird stuff there.
That being said, of course, things have radically changed now, for the worse in my opinion (at least for Europeans and French specifically), but I do believe that Putin had genuine interests in getting closer to the West. Either for financial/cultural reasons or as a virus to infect EU from within if you wish to see that with a pinch of mistrust (just like UK was a Trojan for more US in EU) or for anything else.
I guess it is difficult to determine exactly what was in his mind when he spoke back then though, and remaking the past is similar to a fantasy, but it can be interesting to look at how relationships drastically changed from, at least, some discussions between states to a complete shitstorm nowadays
What means UE? If you mean in context to US (United Europe) I wont take you serious because you believe in conspiracy theories.
And with the same logic Germany could say "East Prussia was always part of Germany and Poland got it by another power (SU) we have to get it back.
If every nation acts like this have fun with Future conflicts.
And exactly this is the reason why Putin have to be stopped: China believes same, Mexico might be next with Texas and so on.
We live in 21th century and Not in 19th and beginning 20ths anymore.
It has its reason why this should have been past imagination.
Furthermore: Not the started to expand, the western nations in Europe WANTED to Join NATO because they didnt want to suffer under a possible SU 2.0 again.
And its a Legend there was a contract between NATO and Russia not to expand into east Europe.
Gorbatschow was naive to let it be a mouthly agreement and not a signed contract.
What means UE? If you mean in context to US (United Europe) I wont take you serious because you believe in conspiracy theories.
Mistranslation between EU and UE (European Unione vs Union Européenne).
And with the same logic Germany could say "East Prussia was always part of Germany and Poland got it by another power (SU) we have to get it back.
Which logic. You still didn't answer my previous question by the way.
If every nation acts like this have fun with Future conflicts.
Germany already believes Europe it's its backyard.
And exactly this is the reason why Putin have to be stopped: China believes same, Mexico might be next with Texas and so on.
More escalations is sure the best way to get peace. Let's whine and point out at how bad are Russia, China... and forget how the West imperialism is. Mexico taking back the US the same way US annexed Texas, hence with mass migration, would be hilarious to some extent, especially after how they made coups after coups in Latin America.
We live in 21th century and Not in 19th and beginning 20ths anymore.
What does that even mean?
It has its reason why this should have been past imagination.
Because of beautiful dreams from Europeans and how morally superior we are compared to the savages from the past and tyrannical countries that slightly disagree to comply to our great and awesome values? I agree. It would be incredibly better if Germany was a little bit more like France pre-euro.
Furthermore: Not the started to expand, the western nations in Europe WANTED to Join NATO because they didnt want to suffer under a possible SU 2.0 again.
I sure would wish to be part of any union if I was given 5 billions, too.
And its a Legend there was a contract between NATO and Russia not to expand into east Europe.
Didn't mention that here, but it's neither a legend or a contract: It was a promise/assurance just like you said later. THe fact that you recognize it then follow it "lol stupid" just shows that Westerners are no better than others.
People didn't care about Ukraine and Giza until the NWO and the fighting in the east began. Some people didn't even know where these countries were, but they made a huge fuss. The funniest thing is that people first shouted that they supported Ukraine, and then two years later, as always, they forgot about it. About how people constantly meddle in other people's business; The United States meddles in most issues for a couple of reasons: Domination of the sea, you can hardly get to their land, and the dollar is a meter-long currency. Small fry like Germany or France don't even come close to them in terms of influence. So the United States is brazenly using Europe as a great chessboard to play a game of chess with the Russian Federation. However, as long as the Russian Federation and the PRC exist, the United States will not dominate the entire world; the question about the country is not understood; where can thousands of people live? Firstly, who is "he", and secondly, should he give a fuck?; Deportation: Believe me, you can deport anyone, especially if there is a serious reason for it. A person is not a person, but the law must be followed. If the law is not followed, then go to hell
You are wrong:
For some years now, it's been the other way around: the Americans see Europe as a drag that only costs money and is actually more of a competitor as a trading partner.
It's not just Donald Trump who wants to see Europe become more independent in terms of defense; Obama also wanted to see it that way.
The Europeans have made the mistake of understanding the eastward expansion and the initial toleration by Russia as if Russia had nothing against it and “change through trade” would create lasting peace in Europe, because no one can survive without the other country.
However, what Russia is doing is anything but okay! With Putin, it is clear that he is exploiting every weakness and using negotiations such as the Minsk Agreement exclusively for his own interests.
I feel sick saying this.... But I fear he can. But that depends on Europe and what choices it makes now.
I am really hoping Europe, can choose a leader to rally around, who opposes the notion that it is all up to the us president.
I hope Europe makes some really good decisions right now. Those decisions can't consider the US. It isn't in the world's best interests.
I hope one day, we can earn back the world's trust again. But for now, make the choices that will save those who need to be saved from the whims of Mango Musolini.
