🙏 Life after death? ✨

That's quit easily - that's our children, there is a part of us in them, and that is our life after death.

More than just that, @Ivanovae ! When we dePART, the flesh is left to die, while the true essence of who we are (the soul) lives on forever. Whether we choose darkness (sin and life apart from God = AKA permanent life apart/eternal torment) or Light (God) is up to us now, in this very day and hour.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." ‐ Hebrews 9:27

"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." ‐ 1 Corinthians 6:9

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ‐ Romans 6:23

Pick up your cross, follow Him♥

The scientific method consists of 7 steps: observation, question, hypothesis, prediction, experiment, analysis, and conclusion.

If all works properly, we will come to an accurate conclusion. Whereas improper/inaccurate "science" results in flawed theory and views, meaning the approach in understanding a process must change. The more advanced the question, the more often scientists are wrong, but there are indeed definitive truths ‐ it is simply a matter of discovering them.

That's the point, we might not know that our current understanding of any given phenomenon is correct. In science, there is no such thing as forever true. Everything is just hypothesis and drafts of reality. Accuracy improves with more research. It is also part of scientific thinking to accept that we may never be able to explain everything or anything completely. A lot of people fail to see how incomplete the picture science paints of the world actually is. Most ranches of scientific knowledge are still in their infancy and have only scraped the surface.

I find the problem with science is that too many who claim to be scientists actually aren't. They have decided what things are true and then they try to disregard proof that does not fit their idea of what the end result should be. Then there are brilliant ones, of course, LIke Rupert Sheldrake who actually delve into these matters with curiosity and passion. His books are brilliant too, if someone is looking for interesting reading. =)

That's quit easily - that's our children, there is a part of us in them, and that is our life after death.

Well said and fully agree with this statement. And it is a joy to witness in close proximity on a daily basis! No other life experience can compete with that - at least in my opinion.

@Azryffel, your curiosity is infectious! Loved reading your thoughts (and will likely read the author recommendation, thank you)♥

To your point though, I think we do base our scientific endeavors on what one might call a "forever truth"... I'd even go as far as to say the pursuit itself ‐ the desire to understand, to discover ‐ is based on the belief that we CAN know, hence we try (random thought: Science comes from the root Latin word "scire". In other words, "to know")😊

Studies and expirements explained by atheists often amuse me, especially those involving genetics, as there is a sort of nearsightedness regarding how data is looked at. The way DNA (and the whole of the universe) is made reveals a careful order, with rules and laws capable of being both read and understood. The fact this is even possible ought to make the inherent design very evident to the reader! DNA is known as a code, which is by definition an intelligent system with the purpose of communicating a message. Codes are not random, and just as learning a language allows you to understand and read from it, so too does learning the laws of our universe. To put it simply, if language had no meaning or design, you could not read or understand it. The same is true for God's Creation.

"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe." ‐ Galileo Galilei

Studies and expirements explained by atheists often amuse me, especially those involving genetics, as there is a sort of nearsightedness regarding how data is looked at. The way DNA (and the whole of the universe) is made reveals a careful order, with rules and laws capable of being both read and understood. The fact this is even possible ought to make the inherent design very evident to the reader! DNA is known as a code, which is by definition an intelligent system with the purpose of communicating a message. Codes are not random, and just as learning a language allows you to understand and read from it, so too does learning the laws of our universe. To put it simply, if language had no meaning or design, you could not read or understand it. The same is true for God's Creation.

How about God creating very simple rules that, when intertwined, can produce much more complex systems rather than making him intervene in the middle to make a work that seems rather questionable in terms of effficiency? On my part, I find this much more impressive, given the chaos and countless outcomes you can get by slightly changing initial conditions of a system.

The code you mention is essentially a metaphore used in biology to make it simpler to imagine, but it's always arising from more "primitive" rules of chemistry and, even earlier, physics.

More than that, I believe we are here mixing the territory of science and the one of religion by mixing the "how" and the "why". That said, I would have never get closer to religious belief with an engineering God coding like a dork, I find it slightly reductant...

How about God creating very simple rules

Despite what the untrained eye might think, the systems in place are actually extraordinarily intricate, even down to the cell and molecule. Scientists are discovering more and more detail in His design 🙂

that, when intertwined, can produce much more complex systems rather than making him intervene in the middle to make a work that seems rather questionable in terms of effficiency?

I believe I've mentioned this before, but the Bible says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." The key word here is the beginning. He finished the work ‐ meaning the systems for sustainability are already in place.

The atheistic faith however, believes not in one miracle (like God creating), but a whole series of miracles ‐ something from nothing, order from randomness, life from non‐life...and we haven't even scratched the surface of how vastly impossible it would be for us to come about along every step of the way. It is more outlandish to me than if someone claimed a toddler could slap a keyboard with a towel and write up three volumes of American History!

The code you mention is essentially a metaphore

It is actually a description, and of a real system! Put into place by an intelligent mind.

To give you an example,

let's say the words you are reading now were NOT written by a thinking brain. But then you realise they would be jibberish, without meaning or readability. It'd look something like, "sgishefaufxejtbaryebvxo". And to say that lacks a mind would be a stretch too, because the very letters themselves were designed!

I hope you see where I am coming from, and why all the greatest founding scientists and philosophers who observed Creation found God to be the One responsible for it all.

Ah it's foolish to be so proud to believe that ADHD keyboard warriors like us could think more deeply on questions we merely ponder in passing, while the giants before us devoted their hearts, minds and entire lives to such studies.

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ‐ Issac Newton

Despite what the untrained eye might think, the systems in place are actually extraordinarily intricate, even down to the cell and molecule. Scientists are discovering more and more detail in His design 🙂

You can't come with condescending "untrained eye" to justify your belief and support it with "there is complexity, thus it supports design". This, and the way the sentence was cut, shows a clear misunderstanding of my previous statement and how simple rules can give birth to very complex systems. This is a twist.
Moreover and like I said, this sounds like a rather reductant view of a tinker God who could not define all initial parameters, making an initial flawed desiggn that needs to adjust his creation later on, like a mechanic on an engine.

Science favours the principle of parsimony, the most elegant and least cost path as explanation for how things are. An intelligent Design, especially in biology where neo-darwinism explains biological complexity emerges fairly well already, is far from being the parsimonious idea. It doesn't say anything about the existence of a God or the origin of life, let's this be clear, but the "how" question has a reasonable explanation.

The atheistic faith however, believes not in one miracle (like God creating), but a whole series of miracles ‐ something from nothing, order from randomness, life from non‐life...and we haven't even scratched the surface of how vastly impossible it would be for us to come about along every step of the way. It is more outlandish to me than if someone claimed a toddler could slap a keyboard with a towel and write up three volumes of American History!

There is a contradiction in mentioning that Christianism needs one miracle only while saying that God needed to "finish the work"; that implies several miracles.
Furthermore, limiting all the contradictory views to yours as "atheistic" won't strenghten your point, for a bunch of theists themselves also embrace different conceptions of God, just like the one I previously mentioned.

Taking the risk of repeating myself: complexity can emerge from simplicity. The very evidence of that in your daily life is that you can make gastonomic cuisine with the same rules you use to make boiled potatoes only. More scientifically, the theor of Evolution or just Chaos Theory show that very well and are very imaged.

Something important to notice here, since I strongly suspect it is the case: randomness isn't how things work in evolution/biology. You can also be deterministic to the extreme and still not call for intervention of God to explain biological complexity or the state of the Universe. In fact, this is very much my own case in Evolution.

It is actually a description, and of a real system! Put into place by an intelligent mind.

To give you an example,

let's say the words you are reading now were NOT written by a thinking brain. But then you realise they would be jibberish, without meaning or readability. It'd look something like, "sgishefaufxejtbaryebvxo". And to say that lacks a mind would be a stretch too, because the very letters themselves were designed!

No, no, it's a metaphore, the real system is a chain of nucleotides that obey to biochemichal rules, themselves following physical rules. There is no such thing as an obscure code behind DNA and a good hint of that is how some nucleotides can potentially be replaced...

To give you an example;
When you put your hand on fire, heat energy is transferred to your hand, hydrogen bonds weakens and end up breaking, whereas enzymes reach a temperature under which they stop functionning properly: proteins start to unfold. Heat will evaporate water, increase the pressure within your cells and tissues making cells probably explode and your tissues get damaged,; later, your skin will adopt a delicious smell of pork, alongside a grilled bbq coloration.

No code needed, no design at this stage (just like at DNA stage), just simple physical and chemical reactions leading to a complex disaster I barely started to scratch explaining.

I hope you see where I am coming from, and why all the greatest founding scientists and philosophers who observed Creation found God to be the One responsible for it all.

Ah it's foolish to be so proud to believe that ADHD keyboard warriors like us could think more deeply on questions we merely ponder in passing, while the giants before us devoted their hearts, minds and entire lives to such studies.

That's cherry picking mixed with call to authority and historical bias. As far as I notice, a vast part of the scientific community is irrelegious nowaday. As a personal experience, I also have met more people losing their faith than gaining it...

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ‐ Issac Newton

This refers to previous scientists setting the stepping stone for Newton's discovery, but careful with the giants, because when you can very much find any dead good scientist or philosopher to justify your point of view. I could very well quote Laplace to say how God is not a needed hypothesis here. (which is also why I suggested another belief in my previous statement; God setting initial conditions in such a way that the world as we know emerges; thhis is, however, only a belief , which I myself subscribe to, and not any proof of existence).
I feel forced to specify that it doesn't dismiss the existence of God; it's just not necessary to explain some things (could have used Dawkins else...)

Again, here, I think there is a lot of "why" mixing with "how", creating further misunderstandings. Here, you ask "why complexity?", whereas "how complexity?" is a question one can answer.

You can't come with condescending "untrained eye" to justify your belief and support it with "there is complexity, thus it supports design".

Dear friend, I did not mean to condescend. If I did, I apologize. When I speak of the untrained eye, I am referring to even my own. Perhaps I should have said "naked eye", but some complexity can be seen, so I did not.

As for the entirety of my belief being hinged on the complexity of God's design ‐ this is simply not true. It would be like reducing your belief to "there is complexity, thus it supports uncomplicated undesign."

There is evidence beyond complexity: physical, moral, philosophical, etc. I have mentioned several in my previous posts.

This, and the way the sentence was cut, shows a clear misunderstanding of my previous statement and how simple rules can give birth to very complex systems.

I'm not sure if you read on after the first misunderstanding, but that was one of the full sentences I actually included! Normally I will not quote the entire thing, rather a reference to it, so the person I'm talking to understands what is being referenced, but I liked the spark of enthusiasm.

As for the "simple rules" ‐ I have a question for you: what do you believe a "rule" is? I understand it as an authoritative direction for conduct (governed by an entity more complex than the thing created). An example: 8 men on a field want to enjoy the grass. If all of them decided to do so on their own, we would have chaos. But the invention of a set of rules (which came from the unknowably complex mind) brought about Football.

It doesn't say anything about the existence of a God or the origin of life, let's this be clear, but the "how" question has a reasonable explanation.

Yes, and because your faith, belief and theories regarding this follow modern darwinianism, the logical and reasonable answer I offer (A Creator) will likely not be considered.

There is a contradiction in mentioning that Christianism needs one miracle only while saying that God needed to "finish the work"; that implies several miracles.

Oh no, just one. If an intelligent entity created the universe, it easily explains all the impossibly improbable steps to our development along the way. Rather than everything coming from nothing, an Intelligent Creator designed it. Instead of miraculously developing over billions of years from a tadpole ‐ that Creator made us from dirt (and scientists discovered we are in fact made of dirt!).

In the words of a famous atheist: "the essence of life is statistical improbability on a colossal scale" To that I say, without a Creator, yes.

Don't get me wrong though, the Christian life is a miracle daily. The fact God could love and transform a wretched thing like me is beyond my understanding☺

Taking the risk of repeating myself: complexity can emerge from simplicity. The very evidence of that in your daily life is that you can make gastonomic cuisine with the same rules you use to make boiled potatoes only. More scientifically, the theor of Evolution or just Chaos Theory show that very well and are very imaged.

I disagree, as I only know the opposite to be so. But what you said about creating cuisine was an excellent observation! Many atheists cannot believe we are made from the same material without coming from each other. Clearly, a chef can take the same two ingredients in differing ratios to make unique meals (no, the spaghetti did not come from the meatball, just as hamsters did not come from the amoeba kekek).

You can also be deterministic to the extreme and still not call for intervention of God to explain biological complexity or the state of the Universe.

Don't you ever look at your life and wonder why you are living? Why you have a heart? One of the biggest issues I have with atheism is the lack of moral responsibility that entails. If we are just blobs of evolved soup, why should we care if someone is stabbed? If truth is relative, I could live life my way, you live life yours. But no, God gave us a heart, a working mind, a conscience.

God's intervention is unnecessary as He has put the laws in place already, including the moral law written on our hearts. Jumping out a window results in splat, and in the same vein, breaking the law rightly condemns you to prison. All have sinned and broken God's law, all rightly deserve justice for it. But Jesus Christ came to take our place, pay our fines and suffer for us on the cross. All we have to do is repent (turn from the stuff we know is morally wrong) and trust in Jesus. God cannot lie, and His promise is everlasting life with a new heart with new desires that love Goodness and Light rather than darkness. I pray you will think about this soberly and come to know Christ. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen

When you put your hand on fire, heat energy is transferred to your hand, hydrogen bonds weakens and end up breaking, whereas enzymes reach a temperature under which they stop functionning properly: proteins start to unfold. Heat will evaporate water, increase the pressure within your cells and tissues making cells probably explode and your tissues get damaged,; later, your skin will adopt a delicious smell of pork, alongside a grilled bbq coloration.

Love the nerding out! And yes, this is part of the many laws God has put into effect. These physical and chemical reactions you describe are simply observations of a process, not an origin, motivating force, or reason for them.

thhis is, however, only a belief , which I myself subscribe to, and not any proof of existence

We agree here. However, one could go as far as to claim there are no proofs that I exist! Who's to say I'm not just a bad dream you're having?

Of course we are thinking, rational beings as well as compassionate. You are not a blob of worthless mush Lianshen. I value you as a beautiful person made in the image of God. You are loved greatly♥

Again, your response shows clear misunderstanding of what I was sharing, notably on science and evolution, so I will just quickly reply:

As for the "simple rules" ‐ I have a question for you: what do you believe a "rule" is?

I mentionned example with the Theory of Evolution and Chaotic Theory. Football sounds like a rather shaky analogy. I also will repeat: you are blending "how" and "why" here again.

Yes, and because your faith, belief and theories regarding this follow modern darwinianism, the logical and reasonable answer I offer (A Creator) will likely not be considered.

This is the most revealing sentence I think. It shows that you have completely put aside what I explicited and that you have a bias on evolution. Darwin himself mentioned, very fairly, that the theory of Evolution and a Creator are not mutually exclusive; it just isn't needed to reflects the evolution of life. I won't blame anybody on that or misunderstanding the mechanisms of Evolution though, for apparently this is not intuitive (and what students are taught in middle/high school i really poor).

Again, how and why.

Oh no, just one. If an intelligent entity created the universe, it easily explains all the impossibly improbable steps to our development along the way. Rather than everything coming from nothing, an Intelligent Creator designed it. Instead of miraculously developing over billions of years from a tadpole ‐ that Creator made us from dirt (and scientists discovered we are in fact made of dirt!).

2 things;
- No, using a miracle to explain other so called miracles is not just 1

- You are caricaturing science when it doesn't go your way and then trying to use it to support your point. Please, be consistent with other people.

Also no, no consensus on how or why life appeared in science...

Don't you ever look at your life and wonder why you are living? Why you have a heart? One of the biggest issues I have with atheism is the lack of moral responsibility that entails. If we are just blobs of evolved soup, why should we care if someone is stabbed? If truth is relative, I could live life my way, you live life yours. But no, God gave us a heart, a working mind, a conscience.

Irrelevant and caricatural. This doesn't look like simple misunderstanding anymore...

God's intervention is unnecessary as He has put the laws in place already, including the moral law written on our hearts.

You preach interventionism through Design... Again, be consistent for what you describe was exactly the point I was mentioning in my initial post : setting the initial conditions at the begining => development with no need for intervention.

God cannot lie

People can.

Love the nerding out! And yes, this is part of the many laws God has put into effect. These physical and chemical reactions you describe are simply observations of a process, not an origin, motivating force, or reason for them.

One very last time; How and Why are different questions to respond for which there is a need to be a differentiation. I clearly separated them from post 1.


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To end that more properly on my side:

You are curious it seems, it's good, but it feels like the curiosity has found one intuitive answer and doesn't expand to other explanations, but rather seeks to confirm them... That said, my point was to separate clearly 2 things too:

You have metaphysical questions, not scientific ones, hence your questions "why life", "why universe", "why complexity" should stay apart from science and not summon it since it tries to answer "how life (evolves, appears eventually for example)" , "how universe/galaxies form", "how complexity". Science does NOT address purpose; hence my correction on DNA as a "code" being essentially a metaphore and not carrying hidden meaning like a crypted book (it "simply" follows biochemichal rules, which is already a lot).

Those 2 types of questions are fundamentally differents. Although I oversimplified by saying why vs how questions; it's the ultimate purpose thhat is targeted here.

My first question on "how about a God" was meant to explore Creation with a different perspective. Since you like citing great philosopher and scientists, some of them also have pushed further away the idea of God : Marcus Aurelius like many Stoicians blend it with Nature, Spinoza seems to do the same; and Laplace is essentially an hardcore determinist and, to some extent, even Newton you mentionned earlier could be used to justify an idea of God as I described (that's why I called to be cautious with that too).

Yes, we are in agreement that "how" and "why" are different questions (though answering both requires a reasonable and rational mind). We also agree on evolutionary theory and God not being mutually exclusive ‐ I was simply sharing my take on it.

I do believe however, that it is a mistake to separate science and faith, as faith is a response to evidence ‐ essential to science (one must trust in rational intelligence to even make a scientific inquiry). The Bible says what many of the pioneers of modern science believed: that nature itself is evidence of God.

"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" ‐ Romans 1:20

Thoughts and prayers🤗