Still no proof that it exists, tho
I've had visits from people who have passed away, so I consider myself as having proof. But I know this won't convince you and you have the right to believe what you want. It's just that it really isn't straightforward. For the longest of times, people didn't know what that bacteria existed, yet they existed. Just because there's no proof that meets your standards doesn't mean there is no afterlife.
Not everything we don’t know today is something that actually exists. Some things are just ideas, not discoveries that arrived late.
This comparison you made is not relevant to this topic. Science didn't create bacteria from scratch. For the same reason I can say that the Sasquatch is real or that I saw a flying dragon. That's not science, it's just imagination.
And it's not "my standard" btw. Science and the scientific process is recognised all over the world while your opinion is just that, an opinion.
Thank @Yue_ for making this forum! Guess it's time to roll up the sleeves and answer this question myself : )
Yes, evidence shows there is indeed life beyond the grave (not to get anecdotal, but there's a reason most doctors have stronger inclinations towards God than your typical person), one of those evidences being that none of us live as if we've an expiration date😝 before I knew the Truth, it used to bug me that trivial little humans like us keep striving for something that (I thought at the time) didn't exist. Perfection.
We build and build, work and work, toil and toil, 'til our faces are blue in the smurf. Still, we are not content. More "progress", more distractions from reality.. The reality that our bodies have been in the process of dying since the day we were born.
Cursed to a life of wanting everything, yet ending in nothing...
What's more, all the treasures we pile up for tomorrow are all too easily cut asunder with an untimely demise. 150,000 people die each day. That's over 55 million deaths every single year from heart disease, cancer and accidents. And the number is only increasing (you can imagine why it might be a good idea to know your eternal destination!).
All this to say, much of my knowledge about life after death comes from my realization that God exists. And why do I believe God exists? Well, because it would be a bit silly not to! When we see a painting, we know there must have been a painter. And a building must have had a builder. The intentionality of the brush strokes, the uniformity of the skyscraper (if I told you nothing made the painting or structure, you might rightly find that very illogical as paintings and buildings don't create themselves), in the same way, creation tells us there is a Creator😇
Morals, order, design, each of which are immensely complex...meanwhile, us prideful, puffed and self‐worshipping creatures cannot even make a single cell from scratch! Not one thing in existence comes from nothing. Life creates life, and in the Words of Jesus Christ:
"I am the way, the truth, and the ʟɪꜰᴇ: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Therefore I base my belief on a knowable Being existing ʙᴇꜰᴏʀᴇ ᴛɪᴍᴇ (God), Who entered into ᴏᴜʀ ᴛɪᴍᴇ as a real historical Person (Jesus Christ) to do and say things no other man had done or said, die, and rise from the dead three days later before hundreds of witnesses who bore record (over 5k manuscripts) of the most important event in human history ‐ Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection. And if you are skeptical of my use of the word "important", I have a few questions for you:
• What is the best selling book ᴏꜰ ᴀʟʟ ᴛɪᴍᴇ?
• Our very time itself, B.C. and A.D. are ᴀʙʙʀᴇᴠɪᴀᴛɪᴏɴs ᴏꜰ ᴡʜᴀᴛ?
• Who is the ᴏɴʟʏ ᴘᴇʀsᴏɴ ɪɴ ʜɪsᴛᴏʀʏ ᴡʜᴏsᴇ ɴᴀᴍᴇ ɪs ᴜsᴇᴅ ᴡᴏʀʟᴅᴡɪᴅᴇ ᴀs ᴀ ᴄᴜʀsᴇ?
Now, a final test to reveal how intellectually honest you are ‐ if the above questions were not about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, wouldn't you like to know what's so special about this bestselling Author, since the calendar revolves around Him, and the fact you use His name as a curse rather than others (e.g. Hitler, Buddha, Ghandi)?
If you made it this far, God bless you and your journey in uncovering the full Truth♥
🇹🇱;🇩🇷
The short answer is ʏᴇs, because even the Lord's ʙᴇʟᴏᴠᴇᴅ, Jesus Christ (God in the flesh), d͟i͟e͟d. And if He rose from the dead, we certainly will, too.
Whether for you that is eternal life with Him, or eternal torment apart, God knows. I can tell you right now though, making the decision to put your faith in Christ will not return void in this life, or the next (John 3:16😇). For saved sinners like me, it's a win‐win. If I'm wrong, no problem. But to the rest: uncertain, atheists and lukewarm enjoyers of this life ‐ if ʏᴏᴜ are wrong ‐ you're in trouble! I pray for those reading this to seek the Truth, and ponder earnestly on their mortality in the moments He gives now, rather than having to experience the decay + impending demise of that fragile earthly vessel alone, and away from the Truth. There is life after death and it is not God's will for any to perish! Jesus Christ Loves you♥
Not everything we don’t know today is something that actually exists. Some things are just ideas, not discoveries that arrived late.
This comparison you made is not relevant to this topic. Science didn't create bacteria from scratch. For the same reason I can say that the Sasquatch is real or that I saw a flying dragon. That's not science, it's just imagination.
And it's not "my standard" btw. Science and the scientific process is recognised all over the world while your opinion is just that, an opinion.
science can't prove that afterlife doesn't exist, so your belief is just a belief too.
Also, If you are genuine in taking the way of the science, then instead of blatantly stating that you know better and afterlife doesn't exist, you should actually look at the evidence and examine the world and base your conclusions on evidence. Like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_(author)
Books from this guy, for instance. The case is well documented, so you can't say it's just a story.
Also, modern science still can't explain where consciousness comes from. In fact, cases such as the books above prove for a fact that consciousness is not created as a function of the brain, since there is consciousness, even when there are no brain functions.
So what is consciousness then? You can't disprove that it might not be a "soul" that produces the consciousness. And until you can, your claims are just a matter of faith too. You want to believe there is no life after death, but you can't prove that, either.
Out of body experiences and people who know what has been discussed in the operating room when they have been under anesthesia and completely unconscious, also prove the theory of brain making consciousnes is untrue.
But consciousness exists beyond the body, then it must be something. I wager it is a form of energy we don't understand yet. People have called it a soul for millennia. The thing about energy is that it can't be destroyed or created, it can only change shape. This we know from science. So if soul is energy and cannot be destroyed, then the logical conclusion is that death just makes the soul change shape. From a body to something else.
I'm sorry but I don't need to prove that something that doesn't exist, really doesn't 🤣 that's not how science works
It's precisely how science works. In science, you need to prove everything. =) Learn what science is before you start throwing that around. =)
There is no scientific evidence that consciousness survives the brain.
Near-death experiences can be explained by residual brain activity, neurochemical alterations and memory reconstruction after coma.
His conclusions are not accepted by neuroscience, medicine, or physics.
From a scientific point of view, his experience does not demonstrate what he claims it does.
And I never said I know better, the description of this thread said "proof" and I still haven't seen any.
I won't explain myself any further because in my experience it's almost impossible to have a rational conversation about this and your manners say a lot about your will to have a polite conversation.
There is no scientific evidence that consciousness survives the brain.
Near-death experiences can be explained by residual brain activity, neurochemical alterations and memory reconstruction after coma.
His conclusions are not accepted by neuroscience, medicine, or physics.
From a scientific point of view, his experience does not demonstrate what he claims it does.
And I never said I know better, the description of this thread said "proof" and I still haven't seen any.
Just because something isn't currently accepted by science, doesn't mean it isn't right. It always takes science a long time to accept any revolutionary new information. Take the model for how the solar system works, for instance.
The bottom line of this is, if you can't prove it doesn't exist, then your theory holds precisely the same value as mine.
Not everything we don’t know today is something that actually exists. Some things are just ideas, not discoveries that arrived late.
Something we agree on! Except I would apply that same argument to the atheistic worldview.
In fact, Sir Francis Bacon (father of the modern scientific method) used the method as a way to better understand God’s creation!
A fitting quote by him (likely inspired by Romans 1:20), "God never wrought miracle to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it."
And more famously, "A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion."
Just because something isn't currently accepted by science, doesn't mean it isn't right.
And by "science", I think you mean the mainstream group😝
Oh boy have there always been attempts to separate God from science...the Bible (AKA collection of ancient historical documents) tells us the earth is spherical and "hangs on nothing", while the popular public back then thought the earth was flat or held on the back of giant dudes. Galileo Galilei (another devout Christian), Isaac Newton (also a believer in God), and Gregor Mendel (you get the picture), are all perfect examples of truth being dismissed by the loud majority.
Something we agree on! Except I would apply that same argument to the atheistic worldview.
In fact, Sir Francis Bacon (father of the modern scientific method) used the method as a way to better understand God’s creation!
A fitting quote by him (likely inspired by Romans 1:20), "God never wrought miracle to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it."
And more famously, "A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion."
Eventhough, theology and philosophy are not enemies, they are not friends either since there is an exact border between them. Theology is the study of God, divine revelation, and religious doctrine, usually assuming a faith position to understand or defend it. Philosophy is the rational, critical study of fundamental questions about reality, knowledge, and existence using logic, often without assuming religious truths. Essentially, theology starts with faith, while philosophy starts with reason.
Essentially, theology starts with faith, while philosophy starts with reason.
Sometimes theologians are really quite close to phisophers, though. Like in questions of what makes a good life. Atheists and people of any given faith can usually find a lot of common ground there. The divide between the two wouldn't necessarily be much at all, if some people were capable of accepting other people's desire to do good for the sake of doing good, not in service to some deity or other. And, seeing these two as having the same value.
Like, if person A saves a drowning person from a building because he believes his god commands it and another saves another drowning person because he feels it leads to a better life, both deeds have equal value.
Like I don't think an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good deity exists, the way the world is a proof of it. But just because I don't believe in one doesn't mean I don't believe in the power of compassion and doing good. Some people seem to think not believing in god means wanting evil for others and that's just not true.
And by "science", I think you mean the mainstream group😝
I actually like the principles of science: seeking proof, rather than believing blindly, weighing options and theories and then following the one that works. The main problem with science is that people who claim to follow scientific principles actually don't. A very good example of this is that if the results that are achieved in so called "paranormal research" ( I don't think there is such thing as paranormal, ghosts etc are a perfectly normal phenomenon) were achieved in any other branch of science, they would be considered proof enough or at the very least reason enough for further study.
This kind of differentiation of treatment of different theories proves that the way people demand scientific proof is actually not an equal process of testing for all theories and that those articles of faith the rulers of science (a very ambiguous term, I know) want to be true are given special treatment. True scientific thinking would demand that once proof exists that something held true cannot be, it would be abandoned, that if proof exist something held true might not be it would be further studied, but sadly this is often not the case in science. People continue to believe in old, proven-wrong results because they want them to be true. Like effectiveness of depression medication. Doesn't work, is no better than placebo, but people want to believe it is and hold on to this, despite growing amount of evidence they are wrong.
Philosophy is the rational, critical study of fundamental questions about reality, knowledge, and existence using logic, often without assuming religious truths.
Yes ‐ and while I can appreciate others' effort to do the right thing, I would not consider myself religious. The realization that life and order in the universe require a Creator actually came through philosophical and logical reasoning!
And I believe anyone who genuinely seeks to know the truth will find it, just as I did. It is a shame most are all too content with the unsatisfactory answers the world feeds us...if only we kept that curiosity as children ‐ that humble desire for truth.
For as long as I can remember, I had these questions tugging at the back of my mind:
Where did we come from?
What is the reason for existence?
Why do we die?
Despite the education system's attempts at resolving this, they further exacerbated the issue with the false ideology of "subjective truth" and "no such thing as good n' evil" ‐ teaching this belief as gospel while somehow simultaneously unable to see the complete lack of common sense/moral responsibility that entails💀
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" ‐ Romans 1:22
Yes ‐ and while I can appreciate others' effort to do the right thing, I would not consider myself religious. The realization that life and order in the universe require a Creator actually came through philosophical and logical reasoning!
And I believe anyone who genuinely seeks to know the truth will find it, just as I did. It is a shame most are all too content with the unsatisfactory answers the world feeds us...if only we kept that curiosity as children ‐ that humble desire for truth.
For as long as I can remember, I had these questions tugging at the back of my mind:
Where did we come from?
What is the reason for existence?
Why do we die?
Despite the education system's attempts at resolving this, they further exacerbated the issue with the false ideology of "subjective truth" and "no such thing as good n' evil" ‐ teaching this belief as gospel while somehow simultaneously unable to see the complete lack of common sense/moral responsibility that entails💀
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" ‐ Romans 1:22
How did you come to the conclusion that there must be a creator? I think it is possible everything came to be as a coincidence, but then certain phenomenon need other explanations than a deity, then. On the position of deities, I'm kind of agnostic. I'm just looking for explanations to phenomenon I have observed in real life. =)
The level to which any individual feels the need to get answers to or ponder some profound questions seems to vary too. Some are just perfectly happy living everyday lives, never thinking about how the universe came to be or what's the reason for existence. They just eat, sleep, have hobbies, interract with people and then eventually die. And I that's fine too. If there's no interest, there's no interest. I'm just too curious for that, I want to understand the existing phenomenon and even if I think I've found an explanation, I will look at other explanations to see if they work better than the one I have been holding onto. It's just fascinating to try to figure out how it all works =)
I've noticed that young people seem very certain about the existence of an afterlife. I was like them at their age, but now I'm much less sure. I think these young people, so full of conviction, still have plenty of time to learn more and perhaps change their minds.
Thinking that ghost stories, cases of possession, or even old songs are proof seems rather unserious to me. Nonsense told a million times remains nonsense. With the hope of a paradise after death, people for whom life is miserable find solace in their misfortune and tell themselves that after this ordeal, life will be beautiful. It's an age-old mental manipulation that plays on our natural dissatisfaction and allows us to endure life's hardships. I'm also not going to believe anyone who tells me they've met the deceased. If that were to happen to me, my view of death would be changed, but despite my age I have never encountered ghosts, spirits, demons, angels, or even God or the Devil.
Bacteria, whose existence was unknown before the invention of the microscope, are made of very real matter. It is very difficult for me to conceive of a thinking entity without a material substrate in which all its fundamental characteristics are inscribed. The case of Alzheimer's patients is interesting: Where is the mind when the deteriorating brain no longer remembers entire periods of its life, when one no longer remembers how to perform basic tasks, no longer recognizes loved ones, and ultimately no longer even knows who one is? In this case, where has the soul of this unfortunate person gone? Should we conclude that it still exists, or that it is somewhere but can no longer interact with its own brain, or simply that there is nothing left?
The progress of computer science fascinates me. It will undoubtedly be possible to create an artificial mind possessing all the basic characteristics of a human being, capable of holding a more meaningful and insightful conversation than any other human, with the difference that its intellectual capabilities will be immense. Should we speak of a soul, of consciousness, in this case? If we erase or destroy this software, will a soul escape from this machine and float in space, or even go to heaven or hell depending on its past behavior?
Yes, NDEs are certainly unsettling experiences that could give an idea of a mind separate from the body and of a heaven or a hell. However, they imply that the brain remains physiologically intact, even if it doesn't seem to function. The person having this experience must be able to recount it upon returning from a coma. If the brain is damaged, this is no longer possible.
Religious people believe that this life is merely a test organized by God to select the most virtuous souls, who will thus have the eternal happiness of living with Him in a wondrous Paradise. But woe to those who do not respect God's commandments. They will suffer for eternity the worst possible pain. I tend to think that Hell is probably more populated than Heaven. It would be better for many if there were nothing after our biological life.
