DO you think when Chinese history begins Politics and governments

some western countries think that chinese history didn't begin until SHANG dynasty,because there are no proofs that XIA dynasyt really existed,but l don't think so

In fact, the west is a double standard. Stavrianos' general global history recognizes that Greece, which also has no written records, does not recognize the Xia Dynasty.The time shift of ancient Greek civilization was completely proved by archaeological achievements and indirect evidence, as was the case in the Xia Dynasty.

I can't agree more.you are so cool.nice to meet you for the first time

The West still waits for concrete evidence of the Xia dynasty, but so far, it looked more like a justification for Shang dynasty to exist, just like SHang dynasty was a justification for Zhou to take the power. The history in Greece is quite different and is strongly backed up from mycenaean, especialyl after they took over the minoan.

So unless proper researches shows the existence of the Xia, the scientific method in the West advices people not to acknowledge too much of what is said on this dynasty. Hopefully though there can be some archeological evidences that would confirm its existence. I think there was such a discovery almost 10 years ago, but there was still work needed to confirm.

get some exact proofs that greece is really existed ,please

get some exact proofs that greece is really existed ,please
You have a shit ton of archeological evidence and text records... There is nothing to prove anymore about ancient Greece to have existed. Something more similar to the Xia dynasty would be the existence of Troy, and in the few past years, good evidences suggest that the city existed as well as the war.

so you cannot think XIa is not existed as well

so you cannot think XIa is not existed as well
I can, as long as evidence aren't strong enough. There is no doubt to have about ancient Greece to exist because they left traces everywhere and their inheritence is strong and present even at the gates of China. Plus, unlike what has been said, Greece has a lot of written records starting 3500 years ago with linear B...
So far, that's not the case with Xia, unless proper evidences came to light.

so how do you explain that shang amitted that xia was existed

and l can't find anything written records to prove greece expect Homeric epic

and l can't find anything written records to prove greece expect Homeric epic


The oldest Linear B tablets are probably those from the Room of Chariot Tablets at Knossos, and date to the latter half of the 15th century BC. You can find numerous tablets written in linear B in places such as Mycenae, Pylos, Thebes, Knossos, Chania and so on. Of course these are not accounts in history but rather administrative recordings. But yet it proves us Aegean region and mainland Greece were occupied by helladic folks as early as neolithic ages.

so how do you explain that shang amitted that xia was existed
From what I've seen, the first records mentionning the Xia dynasty appeared from the Zhou... Also, I would see no point in a record saying "I, part of the Shang dynasty, acknowledge the existence of the former Xia" or anything of this kind.
If you have any informations you could share about these records, or news/papers talking about the Xia and possible confirmation of its existence, feel free to share though.


The oldest Linear B tablets are probably those from the Room of Chariot Tablets at Knossos, and date to the latter half of the 15th century BC. You can find numerous tablets written in linear B in places such as Mycenae, Pylos, Thebes, Knossos, Chania and so on. Of course these are not accounts in history but rather administrative recordings. But yet it proves us Aegean region and mainland Greece were occupied by helladic folks as early as neolithic ages.
Thanks for that. Talking about linear and Knossos, the area also has linear A that attest the presence of Minoans, a civilization that is at least 4000 years old and that probably has massively influenced Mycenaeans (former Greeks)).
As you seem to know more than me about History and history of Greece especially, I'd be more than happy to hear from some details of these civilization, Diogenes.

Edit by Lianshen .

are You a historician?

Me? No, I only got a small interest for some parts of history and ended up on the Xia dynasty a while ago. Diogenes seems to be a kind of though.

so how do you explain that shang amitted that xia was existed
From what I've seen, the first records mentionning the Xia dynasty appeared from the Zhou... Also, I would see no point in a record saying "I, part of the Shang dynasty, acknowledge the existence of the former Xia" or anything of this kind.
If you have any informations you could share about these records, or news/papers talking about the Xia and possible confirmation of its existence, feel free to share though.


The oldest Linear B tablets are probably those from the Room of Chariot Tablets at Knossos, and date to the latter half of the 15th century BC. You can find numerous tablets written in linear B in places such as Mycenae, Pylos, Thebes, Knossos, Chania and so on. Of course these are not accounts in history but rather administrative recordings. But yet it proves us Aegean region and mainland Greece were occupied by helladic folks as early as neolithic ages.
Thanks for that. Talking about linear and Knossos, the area also has linear A that attest the presence of Minoans, a civilization that is at least 4000 years old and that probably has massively influenced Mycenaeans (former Greeks)).
As you seem to know more than me about History and history of Greece especially, I'd be more than happy to hear from some details of these civilization, Diogenes.
Minoans still remains as a great mystery since their linear A is not dechipered yet. British archaeologist Sir Arthur Evans named the civilization after King Minos of Crete, from Greek legend; we do not know what the Minoans actually called themselves. Hilariously we do not know whether "Minos" was a personal name or a title either. Historian Thucydides mentioned on him as a true historical figure and he shows up with an interesting, unique term such as "thalassocracy." The Greek words thalassa, meaning “sea,” and kratos, meaning “power.” This brilliant turn explains us why they have the alias or fame as "sea people". Scholars believe that Linear A written in the local language of Minoan Crete. Recent foundings reveal that Minoans were heavily influenced by Phoenician and Egyptian culture and it is easy to say that they have a kind of kinship with Phoenicians. They didn't have an army in traditional sense and they'd rather bargain than fighting. As comparing to their contemporary neighbours, they were surprisingly peaceful by nature.

Getting back to Xia Dynasty... History and archaeology, although both study the past, are two different disciplines with radically different provenances. History is capable of high-level resolution that can focus on individuals, dates, locations, and events of the past.
Archaeology in contrast is strong in the recovery of long-term general patterns. The dependence on archaeological means to solve historical problems is inevitably a constrained strategy. In the archaeology of the Three Dynasties, it is only in very rare and lucky occasions that archaeologists can achieve the degree of resolution common in history. If archaeology and history are used properly together, they complement each other's silences and fill the gaps in our knowledge of the past. On the one hand, some critical questions, for instance, specific dynastic sequences and key political relationships, can be addressed only through the study of documentary data. On the other hand, archaeology, particularly anthropological archaeology, allows us
to expand narrow historical interpretations into fuller explanations of key transformations. The Chinese historical texts depict Xia, Shang, and Zhou as three powerful early hegemonic states distributed along the middle reaches of the Yellow River during the second and the first millennia B.C. They are often referred to collectively as the era of the Three Dynasties in Chinese history. Classical literature, bronze and oracle bone inscriptions, and archaeology testify that there were probably dozens, if not hundreds, of political entities dotting the terrain during the Three Dynasties era. Nevertheless, the bulk ofthe written records on early China concern only these three early states, and were mostly written by their own historians. The belief in the historicity of Xia does not have much authority without the empirical documentation provided by archaeology. In 1959, inspired by the textual records that western Henan and southwestern Shanxi were described as the homeland of the Xia people, Xu Xusheng organized an archaeological survey in search of the ruins of the Xia Dynasty. His field expedition soon revealed that the Erlitou site at Yanshi. Then all of the scholars support one of the following major points of view: (1) Zou Heng (1979) argued that all four phases of Erlitou were Xia culture; (2) Sun Hua (1980) argued that Erlitou Phases I to III were Xia culture, while Phase IV was Shang culture; (3) Yin Weizhang (1978) advocated that Erlitou Phases I and II were Xia culture, and Phases III and IV were Shang culture; and finally (4) Zheng Guang (1988) maintained that only Phase I was Xiaculture, and the other phases were Shang culture. Chinese scholars focused on the reconstruction of ancient history by using the remaining authentic sources. Other than textual records, inscriptional and archaeological data were also used in the reconstruction. When Xu Xusheng set out from Beijing to survey the region said to be the core activity area of the Xia people, his unambiguous goal was to use archaeological means to solve a historical question. In this regard, he had solved a huge historical puzzle since most of the Chinese scholars now agree that Erlitou was at one time the capital site of the Xia Dynasty. Recent archaeological works indicate that there were other highly complex societies surrounding the Central Plains during the formative period of Chinese civilization. The rise of Chinese civilization was seemingly the result of the complex interaction of these different polities. That is exactly where archaeology can complement the documentary record. Instead, the archaeologists were charged by the chronology project to find features representing historical events, like the Zhou conquest. This is not a healthy trend for the study of the rise of Chinese civilization.

Actually I don’t think that it is really useful or anything to have that history in record, it is already history

In my opinion, the Xia Dynasty existed. For thousands of years, many scholars have mentioned Xia Jie, the late emperor, to admonish the current emperor not to be a tyrant. Before modern times, in fact, China did not care about the views of the west, and there was no need to invent a dynasty out of thin air. Meanwhile, the excavation of Erlitou site proves its existence. If you must say that the Xia Dynasty came from mythology and didn't exist, wouldn't Greece come from mythology and leaves only a little remains? To sum up, your view is untenable. (There might be some gramatical mistakes as I can't speak English well. )

l agree that Xia Dynasty exists too